Of course. If it doesn't serve the Stormcloaks, it doesn't exist.

Don't blame the Stormcloaks' inherent ignorance on the developers. The camp commanders aren't the only Stormcloaks to group all Elves as the Thalmor, and it's blatantly obvious that Bethesda intentionally made them use such ambiguous wording to show that Stormcloaks, while honorable warriors, are not the professional and sophisticated soldiers as their Imperial opponents.

Not even sure where that response came from, so not sure how to respond. I meant that if someone's that sensitive then they probably couldn't handle soldier life, as commanders don't exactly filter their speech.

In all honesty, I think it was intentional. Stormcloaks while not racist don't seem to me like a faction that gives a damn about political correctness. Fine by me.Political correctness doesn't make them any more processional or sophisticated in the soldiering sense. When it comes to soldiering, Nords are the most professional of the races. Don't forget many Stormcloaks are ex legion anyway.

edit: Sorry about extra post, its late.

Are you implying that I couldn't handle soldier life or what? If that's the case I'm going to inform you that I have had a very successful year in military service. And in my experience commanders were exactly the people that filtered their speech. I have not served in wartime, but at least in the army I served in great weigh was put on maintaining a professional and neutral image even when facing the enemy. Not behave like a bunch of vindictive peasants.

Other than that, all that I'm saying is that Stormcloak officers are ignorant and unprofessional, and your admittance of their disregard for soldierly conduct confirms that to me.

The Imperial Legion is highly professional. I don't think you know what professional means. It has no relation to competence, it's about conduct. And conduct shows moral integrity, which is something I can respect in even a defeated military.

And of course, what I always found suspicious is that we never see Stormcloaks taking prisoners. "Take no prisoners" sounds romantic in a movie but in reality massacring PoWs is a war crime of the worst sort. The Empire clearly takes prisoners on a regular basis and we see countless SC prisoners being escorted around Skyrim, but when's the last time you heard Stormcloaks taking prisoners? Doesn't sound very professional to me.

Is that why Tullius calls the locals lawless barbarians, and belittles them and their culture at almost every turn? Thats professionalism to you? Ignorance towards the local populace?

PS

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rescue_from_Fort_Kastav

Couple problems with your theory. The legion fighting in Skyrim is mostly local recruits, we have this from several sources and Tullius himself. And the Stormcloaks, especially officers, have a lot of legion veterans.

You're throwing out a "barbarian" trope that simply doesn't apply in this case. But fits the paternalistic view of the empire, certainly.

Sure. The people forcibly relocated, allowed to pay special taxes to support the state religion, forced into serfdom while the kings pretend they don't believe in slavery, forced into army service to support your oppressors, and allowed to keep your religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Persecutions_of_early_Christians_outside_the_Roman_Empire. Those people.

I stand corrected regarding the prisoners, I can admit that much.

But as far as Tullius goes, his line about barbarism is questionable indeed, but it's a rather meager punch if you ask me. I don't know why some use the line to say that Tullius is a racist, when it clearly just shows that the man has not bee in Skyrim for long. And for his so-called "belittlements", I don't think he intends to mock Nord culture - he just doesn't understand it.

I know the Empire has local recruits. That's why I talk about Stormcloaks, not Nords. I do not say that Nords as a whole are a barbaric people, I'm saying that the Stormcloaks are.

It's the same pool of people, led by legion veterans. You're splitting hairs with distinctions that don't exist. Otherwise known as making stuff up.

Nonsense. There's "civilized" Nords, and then there's "uncivilized" Nords. They are ex-Legion but that does not say what they are inside. There are loyal Nord Legionnaires just like there are rebel ex-Legions.

EDIT: As usual this discussion is leading nowhere and I have to depart to earn money through manual labor. You'll have to finish this thread without me, as atrocious as it may sound.

I should have known that this would turn into yet another waste of time.

In nutcase, I think Stormcloaks are unprofessional and ignorant, and I am not going to deviate from that opinion just like any of you are not going to deviate from yours.

On the subject of the Empire, the entire organization fractured after the deaths of Martin and Ocato, with provinces going their own way and basically spitting on Cyrodiil. It was not until Titus Mede I took the throne that Cyrodiil began to stabilize again, and both he and his predecessors had a lot of work ahead of them to unite the provinces and stabilize the Empire.

Regardless of what people think, Mede was well on his way to restoring the Empire until the Thalmor pulled their gambit and royally buggered his day; add the lack of intelligence on the Thalmor, the possibility of the war claiming more of his subjects, the loss of his legions and the ultimate morale killer - being forced to retake his own Capital - and you can see why he ultimately sued for peace.

But "empire" supporters say the Stormcloaks are racist just because 2 INDIVIDUALS.

This proves that the "empire" can do things but when a Nord does it, everyone want to kill him.


By the 9

They basically have destroyed the Nords of Northern Cyrodiil... I mean... Western Skyrim.

My biggest issue with siding up with the Imperials is the Thalmor. I hate them.

My biggest problem with siding with the Imperials is their complete lack of justification for wanting to execute me at the beginning of the game. From that point onwards I have always sided with the Stormcloaks.

I agree sir. Its a very SS like thing to do.

From my experience when my parents were in the military, thats not at all the case. But this isn't America, and medieval military leaders could say whatever the hell they wanted to you and you had to svck it up. Sensitive souls don't belong. Just because your experience was different, doesn't mean it is the general rule. My family has a history in the military almost a hundred years long, and I've seen how our military conducts itself first hand, not to mention eye witness accounts from my family members who coached me in how it is, in case I decided to go in. Unless you plan on telling them all they're wrong, know that what you say isn't the general rule. I'm assuming you're American, also.

Also, your opinion on professionalism is misplaced. A professional soldier does what he is told and does so in an effective manor that reflects upon his training. A professional army knows effective military tactics and how to work together as a group. The word professional means nothing of what you are saying. It refers to someone who does something as a profession and goes about doing that profession in a manor that would make them experts compared to someone who isn't, such as bandits who would usually not be trained in how to fight as a force. This talk about professionalism from you is colored by your own cultural bias and past experiences, which have absolutely no baring in this conversation whatsoever.

Don't forget that Tullius says you are earning your pardon if you side with the Empire so Tullius himself doesn't think you're innocent. As far as he is concerned, you're just trying to get a pardon.

What's nonsense is this explanation, which gives no difference between Nord legionnaires and ex nord legionnaires in the stormcloaks and why they are different. You call them ignorant, but to me, pushing your cultural views on what is and isn't a professional soldier on another culture who lorewise is said to make the best soldiers in the first place is moreseo, not to mention making a big deal out of the word elf when the context is obviously Thalmor, so much so that no one should even turn their head at the comment unless they already didn't like the Stormcloaks and were looking for something to dislike about them anyway.

You can believe what you want, but know that it is colored by your cultural views. A big no no when discussing things in TES.

Yes they take prisoners that they want to execute with no justification including my character right at the beginning of the game. Not a good start really is it.

Stormcloaks do take prisoners. Civil war quest where you meet up with Hadvar to free some imperials and then you kill the Stormcloaks.

The fact that taking prisoners is somehow even linked to "professional soldiering" is ridiculous and ultimately as irrelevant as anyone could possibly get anyway. Don't even need to bring up some of the most effective and professional military forces in world history who barely ever did so. Beyond for slaves.

Good point Michael.

So let me get this straight, provided that I'm prepared to give up my beliefs, swear allegiance to the empire I will then be pardoned for something I havn't done. That's nothing less than a fascist dictatorship in my book. And people wonder why some of us side with the stormcloaks, doesn't take a lot of working out does it.

That gave me a big "wat" face when doing their side. Ridiculous, truly.