(Give Credit If You Decide to Use this Please)

Update: Newest Edition!

The Empire is perfect, has the best chance against the Thalmor, and has no racism and promotes equality for everyone!

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1469687-imperial-supporters-help-a-stormcloak-understand/?p=22918846

The moral and governing failures of the Empire

There have been multiple examples of the Empire's failings in history to their people. The relevant ones I'll give are Valenwood, and Morrowind, then later Hammerfell.

"In http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era#4E_29, the government of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup. Thus was the Aldmeri Dominion reborn." -The Great War (book)

This was likely possible due to the early negligence of the Empire during the Imperial Simulacrum, which admittedly was not the Empire's fault, as the Emperor was at the time held captive and was replaced by Jagar Tharn. But even after this happened, the Empire allowed themselves to be caught off guard by the Thalmor, and had no idea that they had secretly sided with Bosmer in Valenwood, and was completely taken by surprise when they decided to take it. Now, this was a simple error on their part, and no one can truly blame them for this, as the Thalmor are crafty and no one saw this coming. Even so, the civilians in Valenwood are the ones who are paying, as the game has hinted to us through Delphine that the Thalmor are doing some Ethic Cleansing. But After something like this, and after the Khajiit seceded to join the Dominion after they claimed they returned the moons that disappeared (the moons are a big part of Khajiit culture), you'd think the Empire would have taken the Thalmor as a more serious threat.

Go back a bit and look at Morrowind. During the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire, according to the DLC "Dragonborn", abandoned their provinces in an attempt to protect Cyrodil. They left Morrowind among other provinces unprotected to save themselves, and left everyone to the mercy of the Daedra. Morrowind citizens now resent the Empire despite it not being the same Dynasty. The developers made it a point for us to see that in game npc's still treat this Empire as the Third and same Empire, despite this one being the Mede Dynasty.This is likely because even though the Emperor is different, the way the Empire or maybe the Elder Council operates is inherently the same. An example of this is Hammerfell.

Hammerfell during the Great War was attacked simultaneously with Cyrodiil by the Thalmor. Hammerfell at the time was in a state of constant infighting (note that they interfered in Skyrim's infighting, but not Hammerfell's) and were taken by surprise when the Thalmor came in. Later during the war when the Thalmor sacked the Imperial city, the Empire ordered General Decianus to abandon his post and return to the Imperial City. If it were up to the ones in charge, the Empire would have completely abandoned Hammerfell right then and there. Luckily, the General decided to disobey his order, and discharged a large force of "invalids" to fight in Hammerfell.

All this shows that even though the Empire has not always been under the same dynasty, they still treat their provinces the same. As expendable. Valenwood was simply an error on their part, but when you look at all these failings, it is clear that the Empire is just unable to protect their provinces whether it be their fault or not.

After the heroic efforts of the Nords, Imperials and Bretons, even admittedly Titus Mede himself, the Empire finally took back the Imperial city. After this happened, the Empire signed the infamous White Gold Concordat, which would 1. Outlaw Talos Worship, and 2. Give away almost Half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor (admittedly already occupied by the elves.) While the Empire themselves could not afford to fight on, neither could the Thalmor. I used to believe that they could not know the Thalmor were as weak as they were, but the Great War book states that the info in the book was taken from the Thalmor themselves:

Author's Note: Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers.

And the book clearly states:


In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

This means the Empire had a good idea of the Thalmor's state, but bought into their bluff anyway when they signed the White Gold Concordat. The Redguards of Hammerfell did not wish to give up their land so easy and wanted to fight on. The Empire instead of at least giving supplies to the Redguards or some kind of non combatant support instead just completely dropped Hammerfell as a province. They say they were forced, but the Thalmor, as they apparently knew, could not force anything. The Thalmor wouldn't be in any position to assault Cyrodiil for sending supplies even if they wanted to. You may be thinking that the Empire would need those supplies to rebuild, and you'd be right. But the cost of a whole Province being lost is greater than at least meager support of military supplies so Hammerfell could defend itself, and take back it's land. Now the Empire is out yet another Province, and they only have two, not counting Cyrodiil.

To reiterate.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1453352-taking-sides-between-imperials-or-stormcloaks-but-what-about-the-orcs-and-forsworn/?p=22489750

The “Skyrim cannot survive alone”-argument

This one is one of the simpler arguments to debunk, because any high school dropout can look at the map and see how silly this argument is. Here. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/918987149705159097/C22C10AE7A645DE484D4521251914E3138836D83/&imgrefurl=http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id%3D91249786&h=1202&w=1861&sz=93&tbnid=nBGo07R-Omi71M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=139&zoom=1&usg=__7BIkCEpKVKwWqHJ0jtswf0XmBMU=&docid=Tpko8a8T0KYY3M&sa=X&ei=l3tIUd2vEIyy8AT6zYGwCQ&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAA&dur=1510

Lets look at the two ways a military force can invade a territory. The first possibility is by Land. If the Thalmor were to attempt this, they'd need to go through either Morrowind (not allies of the Thalmor, and never have been, plus Argonians occupy part of it and are fighting the Dark Elves) or Hammerfell (obviously hostile to the Dominion) or through Cyrodiil. Now many say that there's the solution. The Thalmor have a treaty with the Empire, and they are allowed through Cyrodiil and Skyrim. Two things. One, the Justiciars are allowed, and two, whole armies are clearly not. How do I know this? Tullius himself says at the Empire is currently guarding it's border to watch for an attack from the Dominion. Think about that for a sec. If the Thalmor were allowed to walts in whenever they wanted, why the hell is the Empire wasting their time guarding their borders? It makes no sense. Clearly the deal of the Thalmor in their territory extends solely to Justiciars for hunting down "heretics" not their whole army.

Now look at Skyrim's natural barriers. Mountains. The worst kind. You cannot sustain an flow of troops and supplies through a mountain range. Not easily anyway. Couple that with the intense weather, and you have a complete supply chain disaster. Now, the Thalmor, assuming they actually did get through Cyrodiil in whatever fashion still would have trouble getting through even if they used the Pale Pass, due to it's treacherous reputation. Here's an example of how it caused trouble for Tullius during the Stormcloak rebellion:

^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass#cite_note-4} In http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era#4E_201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Stormcloak_Rebellion.^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass#cite_note-5http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass#cite_note-6}

In short, a land invasion is highly unlikely in the current situation. I didn't even talk about the obvious disadvantage of fighting in a cold climate that the Thalmor are not at all used to fighting in (their homeland is SUMMERSET ISLE for Talos's sake) against a people who are literally magically resistant to cold weather and magic.

Now lets look at what the Thalmor are actually good at. Naval invasion. The Thalmor are known to have the most advanced and powerful naval force in Tamriel. But even the most advanced naval ships cannot successfully invade without a safe port nearby to house reinforcements and supplies to sustain the attack. See how far away Summerset Isle is? It would be comically impractical to invade Skyrim from this far away, whether that be by land or sea. Even our real life history proves this fact to be true. The Thalmor can't set one on the coast of Skyrim to the North because one, they'd be under constant attack, and two, the Sea of Ghosts is as the name suggests extremely treacherous. They don't have any islands nearby to do this either. The only possibility they have is to anger the Dark Elves as well, and take one of those islands that are literally on the opposite side of Tamriel from Summerset Isle. Then they'd be fighting two nearby nations at the same time, and this time one of them is magically adept, and are as tough as the Nords are. So without a true safe port, this invasion tactic is even more unlikely to succeed.

This is why I personally laugh at those who say "without the Empire in Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed." The Nords could literally sit back and gulp down some Black-Briar mead while the land does the fighting for them.

The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction

Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

• The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
• Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mer say that the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nord are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1457178-what-is-your-opinion-on-the-dunmer-of-windhelm/?p=22588230


Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.

This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00094186

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00047ca7

^'Tear each other apart' being a clear sign they don't like each other.

Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.

Ulfric is a Power-Hungry Barbarian, The “Ulfric murdered the High King”-argument, and The issue of Ulfric killing Torygg instead of talking to him.

An argument that is commonly defended is that Ulfric is power hungry and a savage. To those who say he's power hungry, you're right. Congradulations. But is that a bad thing? I assume when people say this, they mean that he is power hungry for the sake of power alone. That is false. He wants power so that he can do what his supporters want him to, which is to save Skyrim from the Empire's influence and restore Talos worship. Don't believe me? Does this sound like the words of one who fights for the sake of having power alone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A_5kBJduIg

For those of you who say he's just acting...come on, really? In his palace with the grand total of one stranger? No.

People also say him killing Torygg is proof of his hunger for power, because his court mage says he was a fan of him, and he agreed with what Ulfric was saying, and Ulfric should have talked to him first. Do you see the contradiction? Torygg's court wizard says Torygg knew of his agenda, and Ulfric stated them at the last moot to the point to where he spoke just shy of treason. Torygg, the High King of Skyrim should have said something then if he agreed. And they say he should have asked Torygg one last time before he issued his challenge, but from Ulfric's perspective this would have been stupid. He's in the middle of the Imperial seat of power in Skyrim at the mercy of the Emperor's greatest Skyrim supporter who swore an oath to him, and showed no evidence of agreeing with Ulfric at the moot, and Ulfric is supposed to risk being arrested for treason in the belly of the beast?

A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

This does not sound like the workings of a savage to me. It sounds like one who knows his people's politics and knew how to play them well. People may think he's savage only because of the nature of the Nordic politics, which is outdated compared to non combat loving countries. Ulfric can't be held accountable for playing the politics. He didn't make the rules. And as said before, Ulfric did not murder the High King, he fought Torygg in a duel. Whether you think it was dishonorable or what have you is a different issue. Torygg knew that Ulfric had the Thu'um, and accepted the fight anyway. He also knew he was a seasoned warrior, and likely still would have lost the fight. To Nords, a duel to the death even with the thu'um that is revered in their culture is not dishonorable or cowardly. His use of the thu'um simply shows he was the stronger. Whether you believe that or not isn't the point. The Nords do.

Also: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1454121-can-stormcloak-people-explaine-this-to-me/?p=22498185


Indeed. Which means Ulfric would have wasted his time talking further, and he made the right call.


Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

Courtesy of Tdroid:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6qpq3FrJbxjYWNMZXRZWkdWbzA/edit

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00092335

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00092331

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000e1623

http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thonar%27s_Journal

“Ulfric misused the Voice”

This point is irrelevant, as the only people who follow this are the Grey Beards, and Ulfric who was training to be one was taken as a child to be one. While he does not seem to resent the Grey Beards for this, it still shows that he can't be held accountable for an oath he didn't willfully make. It is however possible that he was willing to make the oath, but he was still a child, and this was before his home was in turmoil. The Thu'um is clearly a weapon meant to be used. In the Nord pantheon, Kynareth, or Kyne to the Nords is a warrior goddess:

Jump to: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kyne#column-one, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kyne#searchInput
Kyne (Kiss At The End), or Kaan in the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragon_Language, is the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nord goddess of the Storm, widow of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shor, Warrior-Wife, and a favored god of warriors

Why would a warrior goddess give the Nords a power that is clearly meant as a weapon to be passive? Jurgen Windcaller only suddenly "realised this" after the Dunmer whooped him silly, then forced other Thu'umers into his way of thinking, claiming the gods punished them for their misuse of the Thu'um. This is a clear case of "Hurtfeelioma". Even with using the Thu'um, Ulfric still says he doesn't use it lightly. Ulfric did not misuse the thu'um. The Grey Beards say otherwise, but Arngeir also thinks you're wrong for using Dragonrend on Alduin to save the world.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1473197-ulfric-and-the-greybeards/?p=22999537

Before people start saying stuff about oathbreaking, let me remind all that Greybeards are supposed to use their voice in times of true need:

Contrary to popular misconceptions, the Greybeards are not, strictly speaking, pacifists; the Way of the Voice teaches only that violence is the least of the Voice's uses, and it should be used for that purpose only in times of "True Need".^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greybeards#cite_note-Hrothgar-6}

He used it originally to fight in the great war, then again to free Markarth, then the controversial one with Torygg. That to me is true need, because he used it to rally men to his cause, which in my opinion is for true need. To make Skyrim independent and free of the WGC. You can argue against it, but there's no official rule for what true need is, so its up for interpretation. More Nords would join his cause if the leader of a rebellion used the power of the heroes of old to accomplish a goal to be like the old honored Nords. There lies the true need, more men for what he considers a good cause. Arngeir obviously forgot about the true need part:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0003f884

Ulfric to me seems to be the one who is following the original purpose of the Greybeards. He still seems to follow it now, as he says he knows its not to be used lightly:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bfc41

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bfc43

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bfc46

He may not realize it, but really, using the voice for troubles like this is what the greybeards were supposed to do.

The “Trade being hurt”

Trade at first will possibly be hurt, as the court wizard of Solitude says, but it will most likely pick up again, if it even drops at all. Why?

1. The trade between the two, namely Cyrodiil and Windhelm is just too important. Both provinces will need to keep up trade, because both are dependent on resources from eachother, and both need to rebuild, especially the Empire. They can't afford to cut themselves off of Skyrim's resources.

2. The East Empire Trading Company still opperates out of Windhelm. If trade was going to be an issue, why would they still work with the rebels and trade? Either the Company despite its leaders being originally appointed by the Emperor doesn't listen to the Empire, or the Empire simply can't afford to hault trade, and neither can Skyrim.

So because of these two reasons, it seems highly unlikely that trade will cease with Skyrim. Maybe it will deteriorate temporarily, but it is doubtful. Especially when the two are in war prep for the next Great War against the Thalmor.

This dialogue suggests as much. Especially the second one:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000665e0

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bc181