Why would staying neutral be better for them? surly they are used as expert mages in the legion thus giving them more jobs, seats on the elder counsel, shares in the empires wealth, access to resources and other necessities that may not be available to them. i really doubt whether having an independent army and government (that would just get trampled on by the neighbouring orcs or redguards) would benefit them in any way.

I disagree, they were part of the Empire in the last game, there's been no mention of them..sooo...the logical conclusion is that they remain in the Empire.

Join Imperials. See the other side of the rainbow!

Well this isn't so bad.

Let's see, first, the only thing pointing to legionnaires being more skilled is headcanon, considering that they're recruiting locally like Ulfric, and Ulfric has legion veterans himself. And they're known for guerrilla tactics. You're not saying they aren't skilled, but you can't say the legion is more skilled. Tullius caught Ulfric once, whether that be with spies or what, he couldn't reproduce the result and the Stormcloaks are fighting them to a standstill currently until we get involved, implying an even playing field.

The comment on the WGC is irrelevant. No one says it was meant to be permanent, but its still going, veintiseis years and counting.

And if the Empire is so petty that they would attack the SCs when they are trying to fight a common enemy, then that says more than I ever could say about them, and I'd suggest that you're on the wrong side of this war By then when invasion time comes, if the SCs freed Skyrim, the Empire couldn't afford to turn down help from anyone. Not as complex an issue as you think, SC victory or Imp victory, they're bound to be fighting together regardless. Enemy of my enemy and all that.

And finally, the Empire is Imperialist. They breed racism through superiority complex. The difference is it takes a little looking to see it, and people are easily blinded by a dunmer count. Racism doesn't mean prejudice. The fact that they have some token minorities on thrones doesn't make the Empire not racist, when the Imperials still control the Empire in the first place. People are just blinded by the pretty veil that Oblivion presented us, which is why I had to dig for them in the first place. There's many more racists in Oblivion than Skyrim, let alone the SC supporters.

Unless you actually provide me with official information that says "high rock left the empire" then they are still part of it...are you challenging logic?

Because the nobles of high rock like power. It's sort of their big thing. Why do you think the emperor sent the blades and an agent to secure numidium? Because the other kingdoms in high rock were planning to use it for themselves(Which they did.) instead of return it to the empire. (They also sent agents of their own to KILL the emperor's personal agent so they could acquire it). High Rock's survived just fine without the empire before. 3rd empire wasn't always there you know.

Sorry, I haven't really played Daggerfall so I'm not sure about all that. I was mainly speaking in general terms. It's better to have teamwork then to go it alone.

Ah but being in a team where you still have sovereignty over your own country is preferable to one where you don't is it not?

No, she's challenging presumptions and guesswork.

Have a problem with that?

Being united in many cases would be good, but it doesn't automatically means it will be better. And in the case of the Empire, by centralizing the leadership like it does, it depends on strong leaders to make it work. Leaders, I might add, looks like they're not that strong atm, with the Dark Brotherhood and the WGC legally sanctioning a major security leak and all of that. If you unite under poor and weak leadership, it will weaken you as well.

I'm not so sure about that. But I will refrain from sharing because it is more then a little off topic.

Yes, i do. Have a problem with me having a problem about her problem, do you?

no they do not breed racism through superiority, there is nothing to support such a claim

if they were as racist as you Imply they would not have allowed a Dunmer Count or Beast-folk in the nobility.. they would have marched on their estates and killed the Count or Noble.. actually, they would have likely done what Ulfric did to Torygg (minus the shouting of course)..

and the Imperials don't really control the Empire.. they only Control it in name... The Elder Council consists of ALL Races that live under the Banner of the Dragon.. Meaning it consists of Man, and Mer.. you don't need to be born a certain race or have a certain heritage to be on the elder council (although it would help)..

and no, we see alot of racist actions by the Nords of Skyrim, not just the SCs, but if you are looking at it, yes Cyrodiil had its fare share of racist individuals, however Skyrim has them to, and to some extent worse degrees..
sure Countess Leyawiin oppressed the Beast Folk in the County (with the exception of the few in Nobility), but at least she allowed them to enter her city




yes the Stormcloaks are skilled warriors, yes their cause may be righteous, and yes maybe they can hold their own against the Empire (which remember, defending is much easier than attacking, you have the homefield advantage), and yes alot of them are not racist, but saying they are less racist per capita than the Imperials is just plain denial..

# of nords killing others based purely on race in skyrim: 0

PS. the stormcloaks are the only faction with a beast race as a steward.

# of imperials killing others based on race in Oblvion: 2

You may have noticed that the imperialized people in cheydinhal hated the count.(As did the other counts)

"Imperials hate Dark Elves; Dark Elves hate Imperials. Imperials hate that a no-name Hlaalu trader got made into a count. Andel Indarys doesn't help his case by having a prat for a son, and a wife that dies in very suspicious circumstances. Our Dark Elves left Morrowind to get away from the Church and State, and they don't like it when Imperials get all holy and patriotic with them. Of course, local Dark Elves tend to be money-grubbing, alcoholic low-brows with little education or culture. Since I read a lot, and speak well, and don't drink brandy from milk pails, I guess I qualify as an Imperial. But on the whole, I like Cheydinhal's Dark Elves better than I like the Imperials, so go figure....""

"How did a Dark Elf become Count Cheydinhal? King Helseth and Barenziah have considerable influence, and Helseth and Indarys are cronies. Get it?"

"Andel Indarys is an intemperate, bibulous philanderer. And a Dark Elf. Other than that, he is perfectly suited to be a count."

# of dunmer killing others based on race in Morrowind: you filthy n'wah fetcher, I'll have your head

Its not denial, its math. Count em up, more racist evidence in Oblivion then Skyrim.

And as I said before, racism doesn't equal prejudice. Them having other races on the council has squat to do with racism. And the Empire is an Imperial governed state, regardless of minorities in power, because the majority of it and its wealth lies with the Imperials. It is called an Imperial Empire for a reason. And yes, it does breed racism through a feeling of superiority. That's how Imperialism works.

Hypothetically speaking if he did do that, I highly doubt they'd be kicking anyone's ass in the heart of the Nordiest city in Skyrim. It would be slaughter.

you are painting with to broad of a brush...

not all Empires in human History follow this view of "Imperialism" as you claim..

Empires can come in many shapes and forms, just like governments and Kingdoms.. sure we have some that would fit into your Criteria, but not all of them..

The Roman Empire, the British Empire, the South American Empire (which granted didn't last long at all), the Spanish Empire, Austrian Empire etc..

they were all Empires, but they all operated very Differently, and some have been known to care much for the people they rule and had no sense of "superiority breeding" as you say..

you are focusing to much on the Word "empire".. the Definition of an Empire is :

I'm not talking about "other" Empires, I'm talking about this one. And from Tullius' dialogue and all the links I provided, the evidence, no matter how much you try to deny it, is truly undeniable.

And all those examples, ESPECIALLY Britian, definitely operate that way on levels most people are unaware of. Rudyard Kipling mean anything to you? It should, he wrote White Man's Burden.

your kinda calling the kettle black there, aren't you?

you posting links to Individuals with a racist attitude doexs not mean thats how the empire runs..

there is nothing to show the Empire in TES follows "Imperialism" as you call it, other than your own head-canon..

and Tullius was clearly not making a racist statement, we have lore from as far back as Morrowind saying how harsh and Dangerous of a place the province of Skyrim is, he was reinforcing that fact saying that the presence of the Legion helps Quell that Situation.....



EDIT: Once again, I am not saying Imperials are not Racist, but they are shown to be more accepting than of the other races, Nords Included.