Not really, I've shown that a large amount of their npcs are racist and have Imperialistic tendencies, like trying to convert Nords and Dunmer to their religious beliefs, and if Tullius saying the other provinces would descend to barbarism, ESPECIALLY Skyrim isn't racist, then nothing is.

There's everything showing their Imperialism. They're called Imperials after all.... lol. You just refuse to see it and I don't have time to help a blind man walk, so say your piece and have your last word. I'm done on the subject and done with the denial.

Just saying it doesn't make it so you know.

We've provided mountains of quotes, actions, and policies from imperials far worse than 2 drunks saying the dunmer are terrible for not supporting the war.

They no longer have the Tribunal to fall back on. I'm going to seriously doubt that. Anyway, the scenario Pistolero suggests is far-fetched so it's unlikely to be an issue.

As for imperialism, didn't know it was so popular these days til TESV. Of course, it being a fantasy world and all, I won't look down on someone for liking a faction of mixed moral certitude. Just don't try sticking on white hats when they're clearly not deserved. Bethesda's writing is a bit more sophisticated than that, even if Oblivion obscured it.

Indeed it is.

More like being intelligent enough to know when you are beaten. If surrendering makes you cowardly, Ulfric has surrendered to enemies three times.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bone

So captured in battle during a war equals surrender? Nope. You don't know if he was wounded and couldn't fight, knocked unconscious, hit be lightning and stunned or what. You just biasedly select the one that makes you tingle the most.

Arrest by your government, who is not an enemy equals surrender? Nope.

The last one, yes. But the difference is he did it to avoid his men being slaughtered unceremoniously and possibly because he expected to be taken to Cyrodiil where he could be put on trial and spread his agenda and be a martyr. Tullius just did it because he lost.

Nice one

Dont forget the Persian Empire. Extremely tolerable people.

Tell that to the people conquered by them.

All three of those count as surrendering, and it really doesn't matter if you agree or not. When you have a guy who complains that the Empire shouldn't have made a peace treaty and instead should have kept fighting or perished, then doesn't fight to the death himself not once but three times, yeah that counts in my book. Just more hypocrisy from old man Stormchoke. As for your bottom excuse that Ulfric did it to save his men and Ulfric is just a coward do you have any proof of that or is this more 'my opinions are fact'?

I'm not even going to continue this with you because its BS. If you think that getting captured in battle means you had to surrender, then you obviously aren't aware how often injured soldiers are hauled away by the enemy, those who are too hurt to fight.

And if you think that being arrested by YOUR OWN PEOPLE who are not fighting you equals surrendering, then you are truly truly biased, more so than anyone on the SC or Imperial side. And that's all I have to say to you.

In Ulfric's case yup getting captured = surrender.

[censored] please. Stop trollin

I felt the same way too. I've completed both Legion and Stormcloak quests and Tullius seems like the more professional, straight-talking dude. Ulfric seems like the kind of bastard that'll manipulate you into doing what he wants.

Plus I've always had a soft spot for Tullius. His first concern when the dragon attacks Helgen is the safety of the civilians there. The Imperial soldiers are all trying to kill the dragon. Hadvar saves a small boy and tells an older warrior to look after the boy while he joins the fight. What are the Stormcloaks concerned with? Escaping. That just about sums up the Stormcloaks for me. They're not bothered about Skyrim or its people, they're a personality cult. They worship Ulfric. It's his word they're loyal to, not Skyrim or its people.

Got to be the worst argument I've seen yet on the Imperial side. It is an Imperial military base, and Ulfric's men just got literally a godsend. So you credit Tullius for defending his own military base and damn Ulfric for escaping so he can help his own people instead of the enemy's? After almost being killed? Even on my worst day, I can argue circles around this point.

Tullius: Save the town!

10 seconds later: Into the keep, you idiot, we're leaving!

Yeah. Real sacrificial heroism there.

Not trollin, that accusation is against the rules btw.

I said a perfectly valid reasoning in a previous post that Ulfric complains that the Empire didn't die for everyone else during the first great war and instead signed a lop-sided peace treaty. Someone then explain to me why the Cyrodiils must go down fighting instead of trying to buy peace, but oh it's perfectly ok for Ulfric to keep giving in when he gets overwhelmed instead of actually fighting to the death for what he believes in.

This is why I have no respect for Ulfric. He's nothing more than a politician. Tullius may be an uncaring narcissist (thought other word would be censored lol) but at least he's honest about who he is.

I completely forgot about that dialogue....yea, some hero alright.

Ulfric is that dude that'll kiss your baby n shake your hand and try and make you feel special, so long as he gets what he wants out of you.

Ralof: "We're all brothers in bindings here... Prisoner go jump into that burning house for safety!" *Watches prisoner do it* "Gee... that looks dangerous... nevermind we're going to find our own way down but you keep on going by yourself..." See both sides do stuff like that.

actually, the Citizens of Helgan were Ulfrics people.. he claims to "fight for the Nords", but he leaves with his forces when the Dragon Attacked leaving the Nord Citizens to their fates.. However, the Legion went out of their way to help the Citizens evacuate..

Tell that to the Dunmer. Ulfric's attitude is you're with him or you're not. You can say what you want about that attitude, but one thing Ulfric doesn't do is overstretch himself to get people to like him. He is as he is, and if that weren't true, he'd be lying to the Dunmer and say that he'll make all their troubles go away if they fight for him. He wants people loyal to the cause, not just anyone.

No, they're not. "Death to the Stormcloaks" makes that pretty clear, so don't try these logical fallacies and dodging common sense with me.

My Breton is joining neither side this time around.

In the past I have always been a Stormcloak supporter, except for one time to see the Imperial side.

In the space of time until Tullius heads for the hills, the Stormcloaks have their gear confiscated and are tied up, but I guess they're supposed to fling themselves at the dragon and spit on him or something. Except Ulfric, who's got a gag on his mouth. I guess he could do a riverdance and see if it mesmerized Alduin into submission.

Oh yeah, vulgar language is against the rules and avoiding the forum censor too btw... Should I contact the moderator hotline?
Oh yea, your "against the rules" accusation is forfeit. I've read the rules. Newbie.