Ulfric or Tullius? : V

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:34 am

I'm playing a Breton mage and I have difficulties deciding which side i have to take, the Stormcloaks or the Imperials. Most of the time i play a Nord and a as a true son of Skyrim i side up with Ulfric's army, but I'm Breton now and have doubts. There is also the debate weither Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are racist. if that is the case it would be advisable maybe to join Tullius instead.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:41 pm

Both sides are racist.

Though the nords have been the least racist main race I've ever seen in a TES game.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:25 am

Join the Stormcloaks.

Ulfric is not racist.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:20 pm

It all comes down to whether you want leveled one handed weapons (Imperials), leveled two handed weapons (stormcloaks) and Tullius Armor or Ulfric's Clothes. Really nothing changes at the end except the opposing Jarls are placed under house arrest.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:58 pm

I never get 2H weapons from when I am playing as a Stormcloak.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:30 am

If I had to use an anology, Tullius would be the professional businessman who won't exactly go around buying beers for his workers, but assess them on merit and quietly helps to pay for his staff and their families' medical needs even without being asked.

Ulfric would be the small town business owner who drags his boys out for food, beers and strippers every so often, while listening to their woes and organizing an union.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:29 am

Stormcloaks are xenophobes, but as a Breton that is a non-issue for you. What you really should be asking is which side can bring a better future for Tamriel. I think the Empire is a better long term solution, despite their many flaws, which is why I support them.

As for the two war leaders, there is one simple difference between them as people: Ulfric is a warrior, Tullius is a soldier. Which one appeals to you more?

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:46 am

Must have installed a mod or something. Sorry. So it's down to getting the clothes of Ulfric or Armor of Tullius then.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:21 pm

Gods. There was already a thread on this yesterday man. The search bar will do you some good. It depends on your character, do whag they would do.

Also, you don't have to pick a side. Bretons as a whole have been with Legion but they have not answered the Legion or the SCs for help.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:09 am

Ulfric have better voice actor. join the stormcloaks

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:14 am

If it helps I have much more respect for Tulliius than Ulfric. Tullius is man enough to treat you like a soldier and not just kiss your ass. With Ulfric I feel like I'm being manipulated into thinking he's some swell guy.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:09 pm

I beg to differ. Tullius has a great voice actor. It's Colonel Tigh dammit!

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:51 am

One of the main reasons I can never side with Ulfric is the general anti-magic sentiment among the Nords and Stormcloak-aligned jarls. Also, anyone whose battlecry is " belongs to the !" speaks to all those things that a free people seek to remove from their land.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:35 am

Nord Legion soldiers say it too.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:07 am

Neither.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:38 am

It's called a Cult of Personality.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:19 am

That would actually be a true breton in the game. U coukd say ur from high rock and just observing which side is gonna win to see who to chum up to and manipulate :-)

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:25 am

The one you like the most, its your game. you judge.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:29 pm

And how Stormcloak camp commanders imply that they are going to forcibly remove all Elves from Skyrim, which most likely would mean mass murder given that Dunmer for example would not want to leave without a fight.

Of course he probably means just the Thalmor, but I would expect a high ranking member of the military to understand the difference between the Thalmor and "Elves". I can't trust an army whose commanders are so sloppy that they confuse an entire group of races with a small extremist organization.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:47 am

You said it yourself, you've always sided with the Stormcloaks. Just try the Imperial side for variety if nothing else.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:14 pm

racism is a weak argument.

Choose who you feel your character believes in. What cause do they see as just?

My breton forsworn will likely side with Tullius even myself personally am a stormcloak supporter. But her decisions are not mine.

» Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:40 pm

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=isB-3YDj4yc

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:15 am

A Forsworn wouldn't join the enemy. They would benefit from the war continuing and eventually The Reach would lose enough soldiers for the Forsworn to take it back.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:25 am

Yeah the Forsworn formed as an organization out of an invasion of the Reach from Cyrodiil http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Legend_of_Red_Eagle.

I think a Forsworn would have a hard time picking who they hated more.

» Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:14 am

Before I say my piece, I'll say that yes, I am biased to my side, but not blinded by it. Both sides have their racists, but I'd argue that while Ulfric and Tullius both say a comment that seems racist, they both are not prejudiced.

Ulfric says something about knife ears regarding the Thalmor, which is a bit racist, even if he himself isn't in my opinion and Tullius says this:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c

Which sounds a lot like:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/white+man%27s+burden

Now, I don't think Tullius is prejudiced, but he is a bit racist. Ulfric probably has a touch of it himself.

Now, here's evidence of Imperial racism:

Spoiler

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wolf_Queen,_v1

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tragic_Accident!_Baenlin_Dead!

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mach-Na

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arentus_Falvius

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Isa_Raman

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dervera_Romalen

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Countess_Alessia_Caro

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tsavi

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Alessia_Ottus Read all of her books.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Julitta_Plotius

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Betto_Plotius

A Dunmer with an Imperial? Say it ain't so!

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Glistel

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Malintus_Ancrus

Imperial supporters and their hypocrisy:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bd71e

And we know the Stormcloak examples already, so here's my counter to these examples:

Spoiler

The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction

Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mer say that the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nord are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1457178-what-is-your-opinion-on-the-dunmer-of-windhelm/?p=22588230

Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.

This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00094186

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00047ca7

^'Tear each other apart' being a clear sign they don't like each other.

Take it for what you will, op and others.