I believe one of the descriptions of the battle between Pelinal Whitestrake and Umaril mentions Pelinal cutting off one of his wings.

he has wings!?

From the Song of Peilinal volume 7:

[And] Umaril was laid low, the angel face of his helm dented into an ugliness which made Pelinal laugh, [and his] unfeathered wings broken off with sword strokes delivered while Pelinal stood [frothing]... above him insulting his ancestry and anyone else that took ship from Old Ehlnofey,


The wings could be on his armor, but since the appelation "Unfeathered" would indicate that wings were usually considered feathered and that the wings themselves weren't the unusual feature. OTOH, he could simply have gotten that nickname due to a childhood prank or something. (Considering what he was I'd rather not know.) :grad:

I still think they're just armor. They're the exact color and texture of his body armor and appear to be perfectly welded to it. There's no exist points or anything.

I don't doubt Proweler one bit when he says Umaril is literally a fallen angel, but that doesn't mean he literally has wings. Maybe he does, but they're probably folded across his back on the inside of his cuirass if he has them. What Pelinal snapped off was the ornamental "wings", which was probably meant to add insult to injury.

What you see ingame are indeed part of the armor.... mayby the crippeled wings are indeed inside the armor... if he had real wings he would probably use them.... o at least hae it on his body so it would look cool....

Umaril was created by the most powerful pantheon of gods, the DEVS.

This ever-changing group of supreme beings, while still all-powerful, have fallen far from their former grace, being too easily swayed by the cosmic winds commerce.

Gathering together, they conspired to create the lamest villain in all of the history of Tamriel, Umaril, who's only greatness was to exploit vagueries in Elder Scrolls lore.

"Let him be both Mortal AND Daedra!" the DEVS declared.

But they quickly grew tired of him, as they were already planning their next move in Realms of Oblivion itself, turning the realm of madness into an island full of businesses and mentally ill inhabitants, and transforming the god of madness himself into a little Scottish fellow.

How would you do it then?!

Lamest?
Did you just completely ignore the thread or what?
And as for the god of madness being a scottish fellow,HE ALWAYS WAS!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:Sheogorath.gif
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW_Sheogorath.jpg
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-Img-ShrineofSheogorath.JPG

First i have to say i'm not a huge fan of the expansions. Not that i think they're bad, but i feel they take away more from TES than they add.

I came to TES through MW, so all i have to go on is what i saw and read in that game. I'm trying to get daggerfall to work pretty much so i can learn more about TES (I like reading books in an in-game environment as opposed to over the net).

I think my attraction to lore is that they said enough to keep me interested, but they were ambiguous enough to keep me even more interested. The daedric princes and realms of oblivion were a mystery to me because some sources were suggesting that the daedra were ancestors, other sources saying they were not (more to it obviously but just an example).

The idea of a realm of madness is almost by definition a psychologically disturbing place, whether it be the source of madness, an afterlife for the mad or a library for insane thoughts and fantasies. So to answer the original question, i would've broken from the open world style and gone for something that better allows an exploration of the concept of madness, whatever that might be.

I was annoyed with shivering isles for a few reasons. First they broke with ambiguity and set in stone what a daedric realm was. Secondly, this is NOT my idea of a realm of madness, SI is a very sane world inhabited by mentally ill people.

P.S Did they add a new god just for an ending to AN EXPANSION?

What exactly do you mean by ambiguity in what a Daedric realm is? I'm not sure if you're talking about the Prince being his realm or just living in it, because that is still in place. Most obvious example is when you've mantled Sheogorath, changing the weather of the realms changes you.

Lamest? Yes, i thought Umaril was pretty lame. In MW (The source of nearly all my lore) there was ambiguity over the mortal/daedra connection, but after Umaril there is now in game precedent to mortal becoming daedra.

Did i ignore the thread? Unfortunately, i have to admit i was more interested in expressing my opinion than entering the discussion. I'm nowhere near as versed in lore as most here, and never will be, but my own understanding of TES lore is still valid in the sense that i have read and formed opinions for myself. I was reading through the posts and the discussion was somewhere different than my understanding allowed, so i threw my post into the lot hoping someone else agreed with me.

Scottish Sheogorath? I didn't know he always was, it didn't seem that way in MW. I thought they made him scottish in SI for comedy reasons.

P.S When i said that the posts were beyond my understanding, what i meant is that everyone seemed to be overlooking what was really bothering me. I gathered that the mortal/daedra connection must have been settled long ago so noone was bothering to mention it.

I agree with you. Not so much about Umaril being lame, although I find all stereotypical eeeevil! vilains pretty lame, yes. I agree that the depiction of madness in the Shivering Isles was extremely infantile, poorly conceived and poorly executed. How would I have done it? I wouldn't! I'd let the casual player be bored and choose another Prince that I could do justice to.

Could you clarify your question please.

It seems to me like you guys are less upset with what TES might have been than you are with what you wish TES was.

I'm personally pretty satisfied with the KOTN portion of the game, myself. Umaril's character design and that of his henchmen were a real standout among the entire Oblivion game - unique and unlike Dremora and servants of Dagon in their golden, angelic appearance as opposed to looking stereotypically evil. The Knights faction itself was fun although the quest was too short, the original Knights die too easily and the Wayshrines portion was annoying and repetitive.

The downside to Umaril, as has been stated, is that he's a one dimensional pissed off giant demonic stompy thing. Reading the lore books concerning Pelinal and the Slave uprising add a little flavor to him as a character - he's out for revenge and it's a dish best served cold. I'm still not sure if he literally believed he could destroy the Divines or if to him slaughtering their followers was enough. He guessed correctly that they can not easily manifest themselves on Nirn except under unique circumstances so they would not have posed a physical threat to him anyway, except in the form of a Champion, which they did through the CoC and the rest is history.

In Shivering Isles, weather changes YOU!

Sorry, I know, that was terrible.

Seriously though, I have a theory that the Tree of Madness is in fact a tower shapes the realm, with a connection to Sheogorath, hence why the new Sheogorath's powers only worked in the Isles. And why Jyggalag would head towards an empty Throne Room.

You said:



Could you elaborate on that?



I don't think it explains those things. First one on the account that Daedra can't enter Mundus and you haven't quite yet mantled Sheogorath, second on the account that the throne room is the seat of power of the realm.

Though the realm is one big tree, the realm is Sheogorath and the realm might focus it's power on Sheogorath like a tower would. Works for me. You could say the same about Mankar or Lorkhan and his Heart. Though the resulting ability to shape the realm seems somewhat redundant, that's already been known.

A Daedric realm, being completely bound to its overlord and lacking the full interplay of order and chaos, has no need for a Tower. As described in Nu-Mantia, anyway. The shape itself has some significance because of the sigil and concept it represents, independent of the Towers.

But as Jyggalag, he could control the underlying Obelisks but not the realm. Likewise, when he was Sheogorath, he could not do anything about the obelisks. It seems that the realm is split between the underlying realm of order, and the realm of madness that overtook it, seemingly dictated by the Tree of Madness and its Prince.

I also have a theory that the Tree of Madness itself is the curse, and the reason that Jyggalag gets turned back into a madman at the end of every Greymarch.

Ofcourse, they're part of Sheogorath. The realm reflects the nature of the Prince, part demented, part manic, with a slight hint of Jyg. When the Jyg personality gained more control over Sheogoraths personality the realm reflected that.

Don't need a tower for that or anything.

But the tower-like tree would explain why the realm remains relatively disorderly even after Sheogorath turns into Jyggalag, and why Jyggalag had to take the realm by force.

Sheogorath isn't just the guy you're looking at, he's the whole realm and you can think of the whole realm as one mind. In this case it has two personalities. Over the course of the game you can see him lose control as after a few missions he no longer appears to you in the throne room. When Sheogorath was the dominant personality, Jyg could still do stuff in the realm. So likewise when Jyg becomes the dominant personality that doesn't mean Sheogoraths personality is completely gone already.

You can stick a tower in there alright but it's landscaping abilities aren't required.

Given the amount of symbolism inherent through-out the SI quest-line, I'd broadly say that both of you are right. Specifically, though, Proweler's right.

In general, the Tree and the Font of Madness at its roots do indeed form the structure and life-blood of the Realm, creating in effect the same thing as a tower. But since not only the source of the structuring, but also the 'tower' itself is Sheogorath-the-power-sink, it is more apt to say that the realm is as Sheogorath wills.

But does his Sheogorath personality go dormant within him, or is his madness completely lost and then regained?

When wasn't there a Sheogorath? You and the old face of the realm broker a deal; he'll retire, you can take the throne. If you've got a pimpin cane and snort cronic/do quests, who'll know the difference? There's no incubation or dormancy or loss of madness involved, its just the ole prince to pauper, razzle-dazzle.