So I was playing Oblivion yesterday and I ran across Vindasel. Knowing who was inside, I was just about to turn back when a thought came to my head. Everyone talks about how they single-handedly killed Umbra. But what if you let someone else do the dirty work?

(For Experiment 3: Mankar Camoran vs. the People of Cyrodiil, scroll down the page)

Experiment 1

Purpose: Which individual or combination of vanilla (no SI or add-ons), non-essential character(s), if any, is capable of killing Umbra while keeping at least one member of the party alive?


Background: Umbra is a level 50, non-leveling Warrior that haunts the ruins of Vindasel. She is part of the quest Clavicus Vile, where the player must kill her and take her sword. The underlying purpose of this experiment is to see what would happen if the player let someone else try to kill Umbra; can other NPCs take down Umbra without player help?


Hypothesis: My original prediction had Umbra falling prey to five or more Level 10 well-armed NPCs.


Plan: I started a new game in the Imperial Sewers. I used a normal Imperial Male under a custom class, but I took out all combat capabilities to ensure he would not be part of the combat. I then stayed at Level 1 throughout the entire experiment. I planned to travel around Cyrodiil, finding NPCs, weapons, and armour with which to raise an army to take down Umbra. In order to get the chosen subjects to the Ayleid ruin of Vindasel, I grabbed a Companion Share and Recruit mod. If you would like to replicate this experiment without mods, use a high-level command humanoid spell.


Trials:

1. My first attempt was simply a test of Umbra's combat capabilites. I traveled to the Imperial City and recruited two Imperial and two Redguard commoners. Three were Level 4, with one Level 5. They were armed with iron daggers and no armour. I brought this party to Vindasel for a showdown with the great Umbra.

The result was pretty obvious. It took only ten seconds for the bodies of my companions to hit the ground. Umbra had not even shed a single drop of blood.

2. I decided to step up my game a bit. I chose three Fighters Guild members (Level 11, 12, 19) and three commoners (Level 4, 4, 2) for my next strike force. The commoners were armed with iron weapons and a single silver longsword, although the FG members were armed with iron or fur. With the levels of these new members, I felt like it was time to see what Umbra was really made of.

I was a bit surprised by this fight. I was almost anticipating victory; it was some shock when Umbra did away with my soldiers in short time. Unlike the last ecounter, the tough gal lost a bit of health, but she was still healthy at the end. It was no matter; I had yet to play my Ace.

3. Now aware of Umbra's power, I decided it was time to finish things. I gathered five FG members of the Anvil guild as well as two commoners. The FG members ranged from Level 10-15 and were armed with iron and fur. The remaining commoners were armed with assorted pieces of steel and iron, but I was betting my pieces on my FG members. Considering there were five FG members with a total level sum of around 50, I was certain they would triumph.

Now this was shocking. Though they came close, Umbra still killed every single one of my companions and still remained on her feet. This opponent was much tougher than I had originally thought. For the first time, I realized that I had badly underestimated Umbra.

4. Getting weary of Umbra's power, I started to just throw whatever I could at Umbra. I grabbed a Level 20 FG member, a Level 11 Mages Guild mage, and a Level 4 Dark Elf commoner, and began the long path back to Vindasel. However, at the last minute, I grabbed the wandering FG porter as almost an afterthought.

And...no surprise...another massacre. I had sent nearly four waves of soldiers at Umbra, and none of them had brought down this mysterious warrior. I was near the end of my options, and was starting to wonder if victory was even possible. However, I noticed something odd during the fight. The Fighters Guild porter, who I had almost forgotten, had actually put quite a dent in Umbra's health by himself. Perhaps...

5. I now outlined my last stand against the onslaught of Umbra. I gathered three FG porters and sent them against Umbra. If they failed to bring her down, I wasn't sure what I would do.

At long last, the mighty Umbra fell to cold steel. The FG porters confronted Umbra and drew their swords. After an epic battle worthy of song, the ebony-clad girl finally bit the dust. But it came at a cost: one of the porters was dead and another was badly wounded.


Conclusion: Umbra is one tough chick. She killed a record 22 Cyrodiilic residents ranging from Level 2 to Level 30. She left the Waterfront District, the Anvil Fighters Guild, and the Chorrol Fighters Guild quiet. She earned her place as the toughest NPC in the game.

I'm sure you're wondering what the statistics are behind all this? Well, I looked it up in the TES:CS. A FG porter is Level 30; three meant a sum of 90. That means Umbra was outmatched 50 to 90, but she STILL killed one of the porters and carved a chunk out of another. One of the reasons for this is Umbra's armour and weapon; they are among the best of in the game. The other is her ridicolously high blade level; her power attacks could kill a commoner in a single blow.

So, who is the best non-essential NPC to single-handedly duel with Umbra and have a remote chance of winning? Well, Count Goldwine of Kvatch, the Night-Mother, and Hannibal Traven are also set at level 50. Only problem is Goldwine is dead, the Night Mother is a frickin spirit, and Traven is essential (and if the MG quest is done: dead).

Below these 50'ers are Vilena Donton and Glenroy at Level 41 and Captain Renault at Level 40. Donton is essential, Glenroy won't work as his stats are rigged (he has 1000 health), and Renault usually dies from the assassins.

The only characters left are Baurus and Oleta at level 40. Baurus loses his essential tag during the game, but at the same time is reduced in level and health. Oleta is non-essential, but she's a priest and probably won't last long against Umbra the Warrior.

You're very best bet is Captain Renault. If you're good at exploiting glitches, kill the MD assassins before they hit Renault. You can then recruit her as a companion. She has 295 health compared to Umbra's 394, but she's wearing a special brand of Blade armor that is more powerful than Umbra's initial loadout. But it's still highly unlikely she'll win; your best bet are the FG porters.

In conclusion, it is entirely possible to kill Umbra utilizing only vanilla, non-essential characters. You just have to throw a crap load of soldiers at her.



Experiment 2

I'm sure you're probably wondering about the exclusion of essential characters. I mean, with cheats, you can turn off their essential crowns and go rambo on some bad guys. To be fair, I've staged one last battle that is truly the most epic I have ever seen.

If you REALLY want to test Umbra's mettle, find the only vanilla NPC powerful enough to challenge her: Vilena Donton. While only Level 41 and health 340, Vilena Donton is a warrior and the only NPC who has the stats to equal those of Umbra (Travis, the only other viable option, would be gutted in seconds). What you'll need to do is armor her up in Full Orcish, which is equivalent to Umbra's starting armor. Then put the only other vanilla sword powerful enough to challenge Umbra in her hand: Goldbrand. While it does not do as much damage, Goldbrand has a fire enchantment that makes it worthy of matching Umbra's advantages. Finally, use the setessential cheat to make her killable.

So I set up the battle on the very bottom floor of Vindasel. Both combatants had equal armor and almost equal swords. Their equipment was repaired to 125% by myself. All that was left was to see the results. The pictures of this battle are below:

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Kaw434/ScreenShot6.jpg
http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Kaw434/ScreenShot7.jpg


Vilena struck with Goldbrand first, staggering Umbra slightly. But Umbra came back with a devastating power attack that caused Vilena to falter. Yet neither of the combatants gave, they fought for a good thirty seconds; sparks flying, fires burning, and magic swirling. And when the smoke cleared:

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Kaw434/ScreenShot12.jpg

Shocking, to say the least. Vilena Donton had just done the impossible by killing the strongest NPC in the game. How? Let's put it this way: The following picture shows how much health Vilena had left at the end of the fight.

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Kaw434/ScreenShot13.jpg

In other words, it was anyone's fight; one more blow could have had Donton dead instead of Umbra. So, in a quick conclusion, a previously essential vanilla NPC has a chance to kill Umbra.

In conclusion, it is possible for a vanilla character to go up against Umbra and win. You just have to turn off the essential crown.

Important Final Note: When testing any of the above things, make sure you stay at Level 1! Umbra does not level with the player, so the higher level you get, the easier it is for leveled NPCs to kill her.

Wow. just wow. that is impressive. :icecream: :foodndrink:

I'm impressed you went to all this effort!
Great and surprising results, actually. I was expecting Umbra to pwn everyone straight away, really. Even after thee Porters' win, I was still expecting Umbra to win. Greaty work :clap:

Awesome experiment! :goodjob:

Umbra is very, very difficult to kill at a low level. It was even harder in Morrowind though, with that Orc.

Fantastic science project! Next test???

The Adoring Fan vs Daedric Claymore to the face.

Adoring Fan vs Glarthir in a nvde lava-wrestling match.

:hubbahubba: I like it.

Where's Dragatus?
I can see a tournament being made out of this.

Glad you guys liked it.

I actually came across this experiment due to my heavy use of companion mods. I'm currently planning a few more experiment centered around the idea of fellow NPCs, not the player, defeating some of hte more powerful enemies or groups of enemies in the game.

I hope to come up with more ideas soon to test; currently thinking of doing something with some conjurers and necromancers. I mean, you see bandits vs. marauders, goblins vs. skeletons...but what would happen if the two great magic-wielding cults in Cyrodiil clashed?

Thanks,

Kroot

Vilena Donton Vs Umbra, impressive battle staged. Well Vilena is the Head of the Fighters Guild, she is meant to be the Patron of for hire warrioirs across Cyrodil. Did you video this battle?
Next question would be as to whom would be the victor, Morrowind Umbra, the hugely high level, very fast, very tough Orc Warrior, or Oblivion Umbra. I walked away from Morrowing Umbra after being sliced and diced at level 25 - reload and refused to fight, apologised for not releiving his mournful state.

That would be wild to see. Though we'd have to make a Claymore version of Umbra,and balance it properly... A little more damage to make up for the defense bonus of Elven Umbra's Shield?

Awesome, I wonder who would win in a fight, Traven or Mannimarco...

Mannimarco, cause he's cooler.

Actually, depending the player level, it would probably be Traven. For all his powers, Manimarco is actually only set about eight levels above the player. Which means, at PC level 1, he's level 8. Now compare that to Traven's non-leveleling Level 50 stats. For the majority of the game, its Traven hands down.

However, if I were to get to level 42 and then test it...I could actually see which person would win.

Thanks,

Kroot

Edit: Oh and sorry, the pics are all I was able to get.

Yes he was really tough. Umbra in Oblivion wasn′t to my dunmer and both those characters of mine were built much the same way and more or less same level.

Btw, very nice work by Kroot9525 :tops:

As I recall there have been numerous threads in which these experiments have been conducted. As long as it was only NPCs, no Gatekeeper or the like, Mankar Camoran won pretty much eveything.

Hm...that's strange. I would have to contest the results of those experiments for two reasons. First, Mankar Camoran is leveled; using him against a non-leveling NPC at any other PC level but 1 could create a flawed result. Second, Mankar Camoran is a mere 10 levels above the player; there are several characters set at levels 30 and 40.

But you have piqued my curiosity. So I guess I have a new experiment: Mankar Camoran vs. the People of Cyrodiil. This will be more a mini-experiment; I'll have it done by tommorrow night.

Thanks,

Kroot

So, here we go.

Mankar Camoran vs. the People of Cyrodiil

Purpose: Is Mankar Camoran capable of killing every and all vanilla NPCs? (Not including the Gatekeeper or any creatures)

Background: A user named zorg recently commented that Mankar Camoran beat every NPC in the game during other experiments. However, I challenge the results of these experiments; Mankar Camoran, unlike most non-respawning NPCs, is leveled. At a high player level, this gives Mankar Camoran a significant advantage over other NPCs. On the other hand, one can argue that Mankar Camoran has some awesome spells and abilites, giving him an upper hand at any level. So I decided to test it out. Please note that the following stats were all taken when the player is level 1


Hypothesis: Mankar Camoran, a Level 10 Mage, will go up against two different characters: A Fighter's Guild Porter (Level 30) and Hannibal Traven (Level 50). From the beginning of the experiment, I had my money on Mankar Camoran dying within seconds of the first blow. There was no way an arrogant High Elf could take down the good people of Tamriel.


Trials:

1. Mankar Camoran vs. FG Porter: I used the TES:CS to create an exact clone of Camoran (stats, face, level, etc). I then dropped him in Arborwatch to prevent other NPCs from interfering in the battle. I then grabbed an FG Porter from the nearby Chorrol Fighters Guild and brought him to Camoran. Soon enough, they began combat.

Um...this was pretty sad. Even with Camoran's spells and enchantments, the porter beat the helpless mage down within a minute. The FG porter still had half his life left, indicating a concrete victory for the people of Cyrodiil.

2. Mankar Camoran vs. Hannibal Traven: The first time around, Camoran beat down Traven. For a moment, I was stunned; had the impossible really occured? Then I realized the problem: Traven had somehow lost his staff in the process of traveling to Chorrol. To even the playing field, I took away Camoran's staff and then restarted the battle. During the second round, Camoran defended himself well for the first few minutes. Then Traven summoned a Storm Atronarch, and....yeah it was pretty much over.


Conclusion:

In conclusion, Mankar Camoran, as awesome as he is, he is NOT capable of killing NPCs like Hannibal Traven and the FG Porter.

Now you may argue that I didn't test out any low level NPCs. I did this because they are not relevant to the experiment: the original purpose was to see if Camoran could top all NPCs in Cyrodiil; one loss to any NPC ends the experiment.

Of course, one might say that had Camoran been at a higher level, he could have beat down Traven easily. True, but that would mean I would have to use a PC level other than 1. Since Traven does NOT level, Camoran would have an unfair advantage.

Anyway, that concludes the experiment. Thank you to zorg for the idea; it really did challenge me to better explore the character of Mankar Camoran and figure out why he's so powerful.

Thanks for reading,

Kroot

You should try the people of Tamriel VS the Gatekeeper both the first one, and the one you build later. I also wonder what it would take for NPCs to take down Sheogorath.

I can have that arranged

Very good experiment, though if sheogorath was there... he would kill her in one hit, although hes not vannila and hes level 254 lol

Hairdo Galosh Jam did a tournament a while back that pitted all the NPC's against each other. What he did was first take all the NPC's of one specific class, and then have a massive brawl to determine the candidate for that class. Then, all the winners from each class were pitted against each other with a tournament bracket. Mankar Camoran won the tournament, easily beating most of the contestants. I also remember the Gray Prince doing well, specifically as he was able to defeat Umaril the Unfeathered (as he knocked the sword out of his hand).

I'm not sure at what level his character was, but I think it might have been around 20.

Halperin: Actually, that would be a huge problem. For example: Camoran is 10 levels above the player. At PC level 20, he's level 30. That means he has an unfair advantage over NPCs like Hannibal Traven (Level 50) who don't level at all. The purpose of keeping my character at level 1 is to even the playing field and keep NPCs at the level that they should be relative to each other. The true test of skill would be allowing a Level 10 Camoran to fight a Level 50 Traven.

But I'm sure the fights were spectacular; I'd love to see a level 30 Camoran in action. I'm just saying that I believe my experiments are more "scientifically minded".

Thanks,

Kroot