We need to account for all perks when talking about a theme oriented character. (One combat skill, not two.)

I just did a test with Ballistic Fist. Unarmed skill was 18 and no melee/unarmed perks at all.
I killed Deathclaws with 2-5 hits. Unarmed is clearly OP.

More things need to be accounted for though.
* What difficulty?
* What chems did you use?/Did you use any chems?
* How many stimpacks`?
* What armor did you use? (Do Deathclaws still ignore DT?)

Has their already been a discussion on how OP rad child is? also, it would make a great perk for an unarmed character.

I like where this thread went. Yea Unarmed is OP, but in a sense, what isnt OP? Problem with Nerfing certain skills, is that the devs will have to go in and re-even everything out because once they rework Unarmed, people will start complaining about it being to weak, and something else being to OP. Melee/unarmed is so OP, because of the fact that you have to get up close and personal with everything. Cazadors, Deathclaws, hell everything in this game is a pain to fight when you have to run at it, especially when it hits like a truck. So how do you survive? Hit it like an angrier, much larger truck. Noone would use melee/unarmed if it did less damage then a 9mm pistol and you couldn't kill anything without spamming stimpaks.

... Good point.

Obsidian, fix [censored] Very Hard mode instead.
Right now it isn't "Very Hard", it's "Only Slightly Harder Than Average"

but, isn't having unarmed And melee a but redundant? why not make unarmed more of a fall-back skill rather than its own play style?

And dumb down Fallout even more?
No thanks.

If I want to play Unarmed as main skill then I should be able to but it shouldn't compare equally to the other skills while at the same time be a viable skill (just harder to play as.).

And damn it Bethesdian I want my Throwing and Big Guns skill back! :argue:

what do you mean it "Shouldn't compare equally to the other skills"? whats the point of having it and being able to focus on it if it's always going to be more weak? it should be equally as powerful as the other major combat skills just have different pros, and cons.

This.

For the last damn time I'm not saying it should be weak.
I'm saying it shouldn't be as strong as the other skills.

Why?
Cause all you do is punch people, you don't toss a grenade at them, you don't fire off a high velocity projectile at them, you don't shoot a bolt of thousands of degrees hot plasma at them, you punch them.
The only one's who should be powerful is bladed gauntlet, and that's with a greater bleed effect.
Power fist, and that's with a greater cripple effect
Displacer glove, and that's with a greater knockdown effect.
And Ballistic Fist should be really powerful since you punch people at pointblank range with two shotgun shells, but it should require to load the weapon after each punch.
All apart from Ballistic Fist should not compare to other combat skills top tier weapons in damage but should have other effects to counter it, and the way to balance BF is that it requires reload after each punch which means that if you didn't kill the enemy in the first punch then there's nothing you can do until you've reloaded the weapon.

Unarmed should be useful in it's own way, but right now it outclasses all other weapons (except snipers but those are always the unbalance exception.) in pure damage which I just find ridiculous since you just punch people.
In the old games I tried a couple of Unarmed characters, and they were really fun to play as, they had a damn hard time to match up the other characters but it was fun non the less.
And the fun factor was the added difficulty that came with focusing on Unarmed exclusively.
I miss that.
That is only possible in New Vegas if one avoids game content and chooses to gimp oneself.
And I've said it multiple times that I do not consider avoiding game content or self gimping as a solution to unbalanced game design.

I am talking about the random numbers that you throw out; damage increase with Lord of Death and Bloody Mess is quite small and only add unrelated decimal when comparing weapon performance.

Normal difficulty.
No chems and no stimpacks.
Combat armor reinforced mark 2 and some DT-perks. Total DT 30.
340 hitpoints (this char. is lvl 29, but it is builded for guns).

I just copied the +[digit] that was in the wikia page, if you don't wish to account for it then you don't have to but I account for each little increase.

I'm assuming the kinetic force from a power fist would be greater than that of a bullet no? Unarmed is fine, and should be devastating given the risks of close quarters combat

Kinetic force?
The risks of close quarters is closing in on the enemy (humanoids) or staying alive (deathclaws) which is easily learned and mastered... Except for Legendary Deathclaw... That bastard can't be killed on Very hard with an Unarmed character.

Simple physics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

Don't see why, considering your previous posts that unarmed is OP at all, sorry.

Actually, someone posted about killing Legendary Deathclaw on very hard with Unarmed. And I have tried it.

What's funnier is you claim Unarmed being overpowered yet you can't kill the Legendary Deathclaw with it.


Wait what? We have discussed that Unarmed isn't as powerful as you feel it, and you still insist it outclass all weapons?

I have already point out Uarmed have even more limited range than Melee weapons.

And no, I don't find my Unarmed character outclass by other weapons in FO2.

And you clearly have no ideal how powerful pneumatic can get.

Displacer Glove(Pushy) create a powerful blast that blends air around it.

While I agree its cool to have a reload animation for Ballistic Fist, I think the general low item health for high tier Unarmed weapon represents the need for battery/ammo etc.

1. Hmm, I didn't face it at top level with Pushy or Ballistic Fist though, was probably mid-level... Yeah I think I spoke too soon on the Legendary Deathclaw, when I faced him I was probably at around lvl 18 - 23, probably had Power Fist or Zap Glove on me, also only had Ranger Takedown cause I kinda messed up the other Unarmed trainers. Gonna have to try it again next time I create an Unarmed spec.

2. -||-

3. I never agreed that that Unarmed was balanced around the others, I've always felt during this discussion that it's too powerful, the only class I can't comment on is Melee.

4. By a half a dozen inches maybe, don't really think it makes much of a difference.

5. I'm confused by this one.

[edit]
Well, frankly I've presented most of the arguments I could come up with, some people have responded to them with their own, but I still feel the same way.
Until someone can convince me that Unarmed does not need a nerf or gives an argument that is new I'll be a bit more absent from this thread.
If someone reads the later posts by me and feel that they want to respond to them please read the ones I posted in the previous pages first.

Reason for this edit is cause I've been through quite a lot of back and forth threads where it just goes in circles.
Better to just avoid it, so if I don't respond to a reply then it's because
A: I will just use a previous argument AKA repeat myself
or
B: because I'm still not convinced.

You didn't use Guns much as well, not to mention your experience with EW is iffy at best ......so even if you not convinced, Unarmed is NOT OVERPOWER with any objective comparison.

To explain Guns: Biased like hell towards Guns, what where they thinking when designing the game? The rest of the combat skills feel underdeveloped, either by underpower, EW and Explosives, or by overpower, Unarmed.
Want an example?
I shot a powder ganger in the back with no critical hit and low Guns skill and instakill him on Hard. Guess which weapon I used? A 9mm Pistol.
Well, I tried using a dynamite, the Explosives first tier equivalent and I had to toss 3 dynamaites to kill a powder ganger.
I had to use... 3 dynamite sticks... To kill a human... While I could one shot him with a freaking 9mm pistol...

And EW?
Sorry, but no, I can't go on about EW again, I know it's not fair since you maybe weren't around for those discussions, but I still can't go on about them.
In NV they're buggy, under balanced, illogical, ammo drainers and generally not very lore friendly IMO.
Example: A laser pistol fires away a concentrated beam of light correct?
Well, it requires 4 shots to kill a dog.
Only weapons which actually feel right are RCW+, Gauss and Holorifle, and that is screwed up by the easy access to EW ammo and conversion tables.

Guns has way too much emphasis in the game while the rest of the combat skills feel very out of place with their design and input.
So why didn't I flesh out on Guns? Cause we're not discussing Guns, I'm not going to take every individual combat skill perk/weapon/situation/enemy/stat and compare it around.

And EW... Just play FO 1/2, see how they were handled there.
Imagine me ranting on about how they were handled and you'll get a clear image of what I'd say.

And this is going offtopic a bit.

@Mako - That video was funny! After my time, but so funny. Atatatatat - like Bruce Lee on steriods

On subject, unarmed/melee should be strong since you have to get close and most hard hitting baddies use close combat. Besides, think about it getting hit in head/chest by some pneumatic powered fist should be devastating. Just the sheer mass alone would kill most anything. A lot more damaging then some bullet. That is like a war hammer X 10!

Guns skill too much emphasis in a game set in the American west? disagree entirely. Some of the best firearms were made during the period of the western 'expansion'. I would be pissed if the game didn't have a leaning towards the guns skill. Explosives need a tweak no doubt, unarmed is fine..

I feel obligated to point out again that Guns, Energy Weapons and Melee all have weapons that have a much higher DPS than the best Unarmed ones and (for Guns and EW) hit from range.

Bull[censored].

Guns always have more emphasis, even back in 1 & 2. Why? because they are the conventional arm of 21st to early 22nd century. Count the number of Small Gun weapon in 1&2, they are the most numerous.

Since you have brought up Unarmed is overpowered, of course we have to discuss other weapon type and see if they are indeed worst than Unarmed or not. Since you didn't have enough experience with all of them, you are simply not the best of judge.

As for the "underpowered" explosive, it can still do comparable damage to the best Unarmed weapon; Unarmed overpowered?


Get a room.

I was in EW discussion. The conclusion? you are blind to see how 1.03 patch brought EW fairly high up.Laser Rifle got twice the damage from patch, Plasma Rifle get 50% more damage, Multiplas use half the ammo etc.

As for your example......clearly you have the wrong idea how tough canines are and how powerful laser is. While I think Laser Pistol should line up against .357 instead of 9mm and do more damage instead of firing quicker, it is still balance under the current scheme as you can load up OC or MC to improve weapon performance.

And yeah, complaining about too many ammo and to expensive to make OC/MC at the same time? you make a whole lot of sense. :facepalm: