Who the [censored] is he/she/it? Sounds like a cool name. But I haven't a clue who it is.



Details? Descriptions?





(Please excuse how ignorant my post sounds/reads)

Well, I won't pretend to know much, but I do have access to the wiki, which almost tells who he is, in case you haven't checked.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Underking is usually regarded as one of three people: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wulfharth, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Zurin_Arctus, or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Talos#Talos / http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim. Or is all three of them. These three interact in events centered around the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Numidium, first in the year 2E 896 when Talos conquered all Tamriel using it and later during the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_(event), in which the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mantella#Mantellawas used to power the Numidium using Wulfharth's soul. Later, Wulfharth's soul was released and he dies. Or, it is said that all three of these people became the Ninth Divine, Talos, which brought Lorkhan back into the pantheon as well.

I probably left out a lot, and am wrong in more, so wait for others before you do anything, but this is what I had thought.

--Edit: Forget that post --

He's an avatar of Lorkhan that recurs at different points in history, leading humans against their enemies.

And usually those enemies are those damned elves.

The Underking in Daggerfall was Zurin Arctus, the Imperial Battlemage but in the Arcturian Heresy the Underking is called Wulfhart/Ysmir. These are two different people being called Underking.

According to Faith of the Empire Tiber Septim is the Cyrodiilic aspect of Talos, Ysmir the the Nordic aspect. The Arcturian heresy however posits that Tiber and Ysmir were different people pretending to be one.

I'm not sure by what theory the UESP stitches them into the person of Tiber Septim. Tiber is one half of the duality then.

All I can say is that Elder Scrolls lore has some very unique and confusing concepts. Things casn both exist and not exist, events can both have happened and not have happened, mortals can become gods, and when they do they become gods throughout all of time... and then there's Fighter's Guild associates hired to kill - or even PROTECT - rats.

Blame the effects of the dragon break

He never had the Hearth of Lorkhan he used the Mantella.


I suppose it is from the Skeleton Man's interview: "You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim"

Hmm, they used the Mantella? So Wulfharth had already been trapped inside by Talos and Zurin before they conquered Tamriell?

I assumed it had used it because the UESP said "The Mantella was used to power it, using Wulfharth's soul. He, being an avatar of Lorkhan, allowed the Mantella to replace the Heart of Lorkhan to power the Numidium." I got confused :shrug:

I understand it's a little confusing. The Numidium was originally constructed to be powered by the Heart of Lorkhan. The Tribunal, by the terms of the Armistice, gave the Empire the Numidium, but the Heart of Lorkhan was technically not theirs to give, so the Empire had to come up with a different power source. Enter the Mantella, Zurin Arctus' heart. If you're an Arcturian. If you're an Ysmir-ian, then it's Ysmir's heart. From what I remember.

Personally, I don't like combining the two, favoring that Zurin Arctus was the Underking, no ifs, ands, or buts. But that's mainly because I have a very elven interpretation of ES mythology, almost to the exclusion of a Nordic interpretation.

Really, I promise that one of these days I really am going to REALLY read the Aldudagga and try to make sense of it.

And lastly, never trust a Wiki to be the be all and end all. Especially if the source is a stub and doesn't cite their sources.

Why would you give away the item that you have to keep returning to to restore your powers?

wait wasn't the numidium given to talos supose to be nothing but a copy of the orginal?

As far as I know, no. Give me a moment to check... It's not mentioned one way or another, but considering that the same name is attached to the one the Dwemer built and the one Septim used, then I'd say it is not a copy. Also, the picture in Divine Metaphysics look pretty similar to Numidium from the Daggerfall ending. Although, Akhulakhan also looked pretty similar.
That too, but it also technically belonged to Dagoth Ur. I doubt Tiber Septim knew that that was the source of their power too.

I wonder how they got Numidium out of the Heart Chamber. Same with Akulakhan, if it was completed by Dagoth Ur, how would that huge golem ever be able to leave the cavern?

I just came across a refrence to it a little while back in the morrowind constrution set let me find it

I stand corrected it was the anumidium that was but a mear copy that tiber septim used to concouer tamriel

If I remember correctly, Kargeenac didn't build Numidium inside the heart chamber. As for Akulakhan, Dagoth Ur probably intended to make some terrain changes to get the powered akulakhan out.

Anumidum = Numidium. Anumidum is another name for Numidium.

Thanks to those Arcturian Heresy hicks and all this Talos confusion, it's very hard to say who the Underking is. This is the "base" explanation given in Daggerfall. Spoilers abound, though relatively little requires one to get particularly far in the Daggerfall questline to learn of.

• Zurin Arctus was the Imperial Battlemage to Tiber Septim.
  
• Tiber Septim discovers the Numidium - the first one, constructed by Kagrenac and led to the disappearance of the Dwemer during the War of the First Council.
  
• Vivec allows Tiber Septim to use this Numidium (this is separate from the one Dagoth-Ur has in Morrowind, which was a second one he built himself) to unite the provinces of Tamriel. In exchange, Morrowind voluntarily joins the Tamrielic Empire but is allowed to maintain their ancestral traditions (such is why slavery is still on Vvardenfell during Morrowind).
  
• Numidium was traditionally powered by the Heart of Lorkhan, which could not be found at the time.
  
• The Mantella was created by Zurin Arctus to serve as a substitute and power the Numidium.
  
• This is where it gets confusing. It is believed that the Mantella was filled by the heart of Tiber Septim, but The Arcturian Heresy claims an earlier Underking (a nord named Wulfharth)'s soul was used to fill it.
  
• Tiber Septim conquers and unites the provinces of Tamriel. However, he doesn't stop here. He decides to continue to abuse the power of the Numidium. Zurin Arctus destroys the Numidium in order to end this chaos, but the Mantella was blown to Aetherius.
  
• Zurin Arctus, without his heart (Mantella can be considered his heart in one of several meanings), continues life as an undead entity forbidden from passage into the afterlife. He is the Underking who the player indirectly interacts with in Daggerfall.

I would say he is Zurin Arctus since he is quoted as the Underking at the very beginning of Morrowind.

It's also the part of the Arcturian Heresy that can be ignored.

• The main point of the Heresy is to show that Wulfheart acted as Tiber Septims double at various point in time. Wulfheart being an avatar of Shor, it's what lets Tiber mantle Shor and take the place of Shezarr (the Imperial version of Shor) in the Imperial Phanteon.

• Tiber taking the heart out of Ysmirs or Arctus works either way. Though it's Talos (Tiber and Ysmir) that's placed against Arctus in the Enantiomorph. So Actus losing his heart echo's Lorkhan loosing his to Auriel in the Dawn Era.

• It also plays nicely with Tibers transition from an upstart Rebel akin to Lorkhan into a rulling king, aka to Akatosh.

"...and pieces of Numidium keep trickling in.."
-The Arcturian Heresy

Akulakhan would probably have been more powerful than Numidium. It was powered by the real deal, not a replacement.

If you're like me and want to save your brain cells and just think of the Underking for who his main persona is, then yes. His actual corporeal form is Zurin Arctus, seeking the Mantella so he can finally be granted death.

I always assumed that Arctus played the Trinimac's part of the Enantiomorph - he slays the Rebel and than he is cursed.

I don't see how hard it is to process that Wulfharth was Underking first then Arctus. -_-