Understanding Armour Piercing and Hollow Point ammo is easy enough. However, there General Store in Goodsprings is selling 9mm +P ammo. What is the +P supposed to mean? There also seems to be some indication it does something to the condition of the gun (Gun CND x 1.20). Does this mean it does more damage to my gun than an normal 9mm ammo, or less? Or does it mean something else completely?

How many other strange ammo type names are there and what are their stats like?

Its plus power I think. In the real world plus power ammo increases muzzle velocity.

+P means overpressure. It has a higher powder pressure inside the cartridge, which increases bullet velocity and stopping power. Unfortunately, this wears out the gun faster, due to the wear and tear it puts on the weapon.

+P stands for "+ Pressure." Real-world, every cartridge has a maximum allowable firing chamber pressure for safety purposes. This pressure can be quite low for some cartridges, to account for there being antique arms in that chambering which may not be as strong as a new weapon in the same caliber. (Some .45-70 Government actually sees this effect, max pressure being set to account for US Civil War era Trapdoor Springfield rifles still in circulation)

+P rounds are loaded to produce more pressure than the "standard allowable" levels, with warnings to use them only in specific weapons designed (or at least approved) for very high-powered high-pressure rounds. Many firearms' warranty information specifically forbids use of +P ammunition, with warnings that the warranty is void the moment such a round is fired.

In-game, they're more powerful (from the increased velocity, just as in reality) and cause your weapon to wear more quickly, which is the "Gun CND". (strain from the increased pressure, higher temperature from friction down the barrel, etc.- also true in reality, but like any game/reality wear comparison, highly exaggerated in-game)

+P ammo has an increased quantity of propellant charge.

The reference is typically for .38 cal ammunition, which can come in +P or ++P, for use in .357 magnum firearms.

I think it was given to 9mm firearms to make them less than useless, but in the real world you don't find it for semi-automatic handguns, as most semi-auto ammo is generally full to maximum load in its design state. Increased propellant load in longarms is referred to as 'express' or 'magnum'.

+P ammo is just loaded hotter than regular ammo. In NV it will do more damage but also wear your gun out just a bit faster. x1.20 means that that type of ammunition causes the regular amount of wear plus 2/10 more than normal ammo. If the ammo says x3.00 that type of ammunition will wear the gun out three times faster than regular x1.00 ammunition wheras a type of ammo that says x.80 condition will cause less wear on the gun.

The stats vary so much that it would take a long time to list all of them but basically each type of ammunition has one or more alternate forms of ammunition that are either easier on the gun, harder on the gun, penetrate armor better, or do much more damage against unarmored enemies but can easily be defeated by body armor. Most are a mixture between several, resulting in need for a tactical use of different ammunition. Best bet is to experiment, find what works best for each situation and pay attention to the stats for the ammo you're using.

Semi-auto rounds:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/36708

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/36711

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/86626

Its actually not less than useless and also most of it isn't sold +P. There are a wide variety of ammunition types available at your local store and only part of them are +P.

Thanks everyone. I had no idea it was based in real life. I just assumed that the +P was a text replacement bug that slipped through the cracks. It would have been nice if this kind of info was in the manual for those of us not into firearms.

I stand corrected...I'm too used to Australian military 9mm which pumps out at 1400fps.

I will clarify as well: I think it was given to the 9mm handguns in the game to improve performance above the 'useless against anything other than a radroach/coyote/molerat' status.

To digress, I don't have much time in the real world for 9 or 10 mm. My crowd have just changed over from .357 revolvers to 10mm semi-autos, and we are a bit wary of the performance. Technically, on paper, it's comparable for what we need, but that doesn't count for much if and when your life counts on it.

The biggest difference in between revolvers and semi automatics is ammo capacity. My XDM has 16 .40 S&W rounds at my disposal, making it much more useful than my .38 special.

As a side note:
Look up the Strassberg Experiments sometime, it proved that enhanced muzzle velocity is just as good as a large "manstopper" round like a .45 ACP.

a 10mm, in real life, is basically the size of a .40 S&W with more powder. the .40 S&W is still a favorite cop round with all branches including US FBI and Martials, I trust their judgment about ballistic performance.

The .40 S&W was pretty much forgotten until the 10mm came out. It was only after the feds and cops starting looking at the 10mm that they realized that the .40 "Short & Weak" was almost ideal in terms of having both good "manstopper" ability (as you put it) and lack of excessive over-penetration. Sometimes you have to take one step forward in order to take two steps back to find the right solution. Too bad MacArthur didn't do the same when he insisted that the M-1 Garand be chambered for .30-06 ammunition.

Trash has been talked about the M-1. Flame War in 3... 2...

Wrong, the .40 Smith came after the 10mm. Development of the .40 Smith came directly after an FBI shootout in 1986. The 10mm auto was already around several years prior but was considered to produce too much recoil for use under normal conditions...then the .40 was born. I had only previously known this information because I investigated the .40 Smith and Wesson round carefully before I bought my Springfield XDM. The .40 Smith's design came from the 10mm not the other way round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Here's the url to the Vault wiki's page on the Hand Loader perk which describes the effects of the various types of custom ammo for guns available in New Vegas.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hand_Loader

Do other people find that the 9mm pistol is weak enough to actually need +P ammo? I don't think I've ever run anything but the standard rounds through mine and it works great on lighter targets. It does almost as much damage as the service rifle, but shoots a heck of a lot faster for some inexplicable reason,and it weighs a lot less (Lightest gun in game?), and it's dirt cheap to repair. Great sidearm to swat irritating gnats in your way.

A tragic event with an all too serious end.
*Not to make light of it, but I could not help noticing the strange oddity that that article describes a gun fight with bullet injuries to the eye and groin, and one of the shooters used .223 ammo; and that it was referenced on the Fallout forum... where the .223 hand gun is oft mentioned along with a desire to shoot at the eyes and groin.

Very useful thread, thanks folks! I don't know the first thing about this sort of stuff (never shot a gun IRL, apart from an air rifle) and I've found this discussion very helpful!

The main reason is probably that IRL the .223 round is pretty weak and easily misses vital organs, the real benefit of it is that recoil is minimal and a rifle can be kept on target fairly easily for follow up shots. Most people use the .223 for coyotes and other small pests like groundhogs.

Well the .223 is also only slightly different from and functionally identical to the 5.56mm NATO round used by the US military as their main battle rifle round and the round chambered by their light squad-level weapons. Though in that case it could be argued the motivating factor is armor penetration through velocity and the much lighter ammo weight than superior kill potential. When only 1 of 10,000 or more fired rounds actually hits someone ammo weight is more important than 1-shot-kill potential.



As to the 10mm, on the basis of the Strassburg Experiment and other studies of terminal ballistics I still stand by the idea that it's a viable combat pistol round, certainly more viable than the aenemic 9mm para and perhaps even more than the .45 ACP (gasp! the heresy! I know).

And that goes double in a post-apocalyptic setting too, the reason is simply that of armor.

In real life what makes a round attractive for defense is often low overpenetration and maximum frangibility and force transfer. That's why you see defense rounds like the glaser, which in some cases couldn't penetrate a leather jacket. But in a post-apocalypse, everyone is carrying around something heavier than a T-shirt. Whether it's boiled leather or prewar impact plastic or metal, it seems most everyone is armored to some extend. That makes low-velocity rounds like a 320 m/sec .45 ACP far less attractive than a 390 m/sec 9mm para or a whopping 450 m/sec 10mm auto.

a 10mm actually probably could punch post-apocalyptic armor.



Oh and to the original question: that extra powder in a 9mm +P is worth a speed of about 430 m/sec, an increase in speed and thus momentum of around 10%.

Thats actually old statistics you're referencing. Its even worse now, some online stuff I read a long time back said something over 200,000 rounds for each insurgent killed in Iraq.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-forced-to-import-bullets-from-israel-as-troops-use-250000-for-every-rebel-killed-508299.html

I don't like the 5.56 round because the actual projectile is too small but it obviously works...if you hit someone enough with it.

If we were basing military rounds solely on kill potential they never should've replaced the 30-06 as their service round, though I can see the benefits of having a smaller round.

If you think the flame wars between the "old school" Fallout fans and the Fallout 3 fans are bad, just go onto any gun forum and start that argument. :flamethrower:

Considering the 5.56mm tumbles and fractures inside soft tissue makes it an excellent wounding round. So a single 3 round burst is enough to put somebody down.

Or the argument about .22 caliber bullets (.223/5.56mm NATO) being for varmints and needing to use a real bullet fighting wars against humans...you'll get that same tired old "But they tumble end over end and do horrific damage" spiel every time.



Ahem..."single 3 round burst." As in, it's such a great stopper you have to shoot someone 3 times. Nudge nudge, grin grin, wink wink, say no more!

3 shots, 1 kill!