I wonder if 'setscale' might make it pretty easy to overcome that, though the high elves might be a bit fatter.

What about bestfolk and orcs?

The easiest solution is "don't play those races." Probably would require extra modeling work.
But maybe these monsters would be so hideously transformed, that they look hardly like human as well as beast.

I had i cool idea for the 'new' vampires you have thought of, i have no idea if it is possible, but if you could somehow with obse, duplicate the player onto a mountable lion's skeleton, make the player invisible and remove the mounting animation so they just appear on this. So effectivly they player would be on all fours to run like a lion, i think this would look really good for the rogues if they were so starving that they started to regress and become bestial, or if the sun was out and they wanted to dash for cover.

Ideally this would be set to be the active running style when you get to a certain hunger level, or activating by hotkey would be okay.

Maybe you can just alter the run animation?

If you have seen the film 'i am legend' this is kind of how i envision the rogues when they become starving. But with crazier eyes and teeth.
I imagine them just becoming bestial and bounding about, jumping high and being viscious. But when fed this is negated a lot.

play werewolves in morrowind, and you get to feel how cool that is.

Actually i thought of the idea whilst looking at an oblivion warewolf mod and wishing the werewolfs were more animal like in boodmoon, such an amazing game....

Thanks for the continued support and all the responses to the new idea. I am surprised to see so much support for the new idea, but frankly I'm grasping at straws to make the guilds all that much different unless I do the blade II way. To me it really gives me motivation to get this mod done and to make it fun, and a diverse play difference.

Appearance wise, I'd say they would look more like nosforatu. Something like this but fangs on each tooth: http://museum.theclubhouse1.net/submissions/images/DKvampire2.jpg

I can make them look that way with any race, so that is not a problem, but for NPC's I will make them a custom race, but for players I can make it all with shaders and bolt on parts like I did the ancient winged vampires. I'll just add bald heads by equipping ears to the hair slot and then add teeth to the tail slot or something like that, then add a vein/skin shader. I already have about everything to do it already, a few minor adjustments and they will look great. The vampire hiding hood I made will work perfect to mask your disguise when you are a rogue.

I'm thinking that rogues were vampires who wanted to lose all vampire weaknesses. In the process, they used necromancy, magick, science, alchemy, etc to try and rid the body of its undead weaknesses, yet keep the strengths, etc. A In an experiment, test vampire subjects were given the special potion and their hunger was insatiable. They drained all the cattle dry, and then turned on their creators. The vampires doing the testing were killing the blood thirsty test subjects, but then the unexpected happened. All the cattle rose from the dead, infected with the rogue virus and outnumbered the vampire scientists, and infected them with the rogue virus.

Something like that anyway. Either the rogues could be human test subjects turned into vampires/turned into rogue infected test subjects, which hate vampires for doing this to them, and anyone they bite becomes one of them, vampire or human.

Or perhaps, all the human cattle that was bitten by a blood crazed vampire that was testing a serum actually became the first rogue. So in order to be a rogue you must be a human. Vampires cannot be infected by it, as their blood is immune to all infections, etc. So maybe the original rogue creators were either annihilated by the rogue test subjects, or they decided to become human and deliberately infected themselves with the rogue virus hoping that it would grow in power, enough for them to take down the covenant.

What idea do you guys like more? I kind of like the idea that there is a 1000+ year old feud going on from a vampire who got exiled from the covenant, who tried making himself stronger with testing, and embraced the rogue virus. This gives him a reason to hate the covenant, and an easy way to grow in numbers. Since traditional vampires are strong by age, there is no way a new coven of vampires will ever be stronger than them. But if they made themselves stronger via potion/serum/rogue virus, they might have a chance. It is unknown to them how strong/fast etc they can become with age/feeds as a rogue, and they are willing to take that chance.

Anyhow, I'm still taking a break. I'm about 40% on saints row 2, so maybe in a week I'll be done and start messing with modding again. I've watched a few other vampire movies, but most of them weren't very good. Blood the last vampire was ok, but really it is more like kill bill than a vampire movie. They did a weak version of marcus with the badly cg generated bat vampire. I'm waiting for true bloods finale, I was so pissed to find out it wasn't on last week due to labor day or whatever. Tomorrow night

I like the fued idea, it would add a lot of depth to the conflict. And the idea of a serum that did this is awesome, because I think that would lead to many quests for the rogues. Perhaps still trying to perfect a serum, this might be one of the last quests for the rogues. After making the perfect potion your player would become the creation that was hoped for when the first ancient took his first drink of the serum. A vampire without vampire weakness. Obviously there would have to be some drawback, I'm not sure what that could be though. Just thought I would add my two cents. Great work as always.

Allo! I think the feud would absolutely add depth. You could try to make a war where both sides actually filled with Npc's and one side with you attack head on. But something to add to the serum Idea and Player-wise would be that along with the insanity of the rouges there would also be a mistake in the ingredients that made hunger for blood larger. This would make playing a rouge vampire very interesting what with half the time as a covenant to drink blood.

Now i like the concept of how it happens, but i think to go with lore how abouts, the rogues want to beat the covenant, and since the covenant is older they will always be stronger ( because the rogues broke from the covenant because of disagreeing with their ethos)

Now as far as i know, Molag Bal is the original creator of the vampires, and maybe (like marcus in underworld i think) you find the original vampire he created, it was a she, i know their is detailes of this either in-game in books or in the wiki.

Now since she was created she is kind of a deadra, and stronger then modern vampires because they are twinned with human DNA(or elements or whatever TES would describe it as) in the rogues quest to find power to defeat the covenant they find this original vampire, and maybe trick her ( or even romance her somehow? ) then you do a ritual where you sacrifice her against her will to drink all her blood and then gain her power.
Molag bal, whilst reveling in chaos dissaproved of this trechery, he warps the mind of the person who drinks her blood (you?) and then the new strain is born.

This way you could maybe appeal to everyone, you start the rogues as a normal vamp, but soon you endup with the release of this new strain, leaving most of their questline open.

I think the first Vampire would be so insanely strong and intelligent due to living such a long life that it would be impossible to kill her or even trick her, and if she is infact a daedra now (I've never read the lore about her) wouldn't she just come back after you killed her? and now since she knows you tricked her (if you could) she would be pissed and just slaughter every rogue for "killing" her. I just don't see how you could trick someone who has lived thousands of years longer than you and PROBABLY had to deal with much more sneaky/silver tounged people in her lifetime. I think if the first Vampire is found it should either be the Covenant asking for her help to annihilate the Rogues once and for all because of the huge threat they pose or, if you do the Rogues quest, you asking for her blood and power to wipe out the smug Covenant for making the Vampire race hide from humanity rather than ruling it with an iron fist in the open. But I don't think she should be killed or tricked, she would just decide IF she wanted to help or not because at this point I think she would be like a demi-god.

season finale of true blood tonight. SPOILER I'm glad maryann is finally out of the picture END SPOILER, but damn did they have to leave ya hanging at the end. Hopefully the next season will go back to vampires a bit more.

I like the idea of involving Molag Bal and his or her first creation. I have come up with a couple scenarios that I think could work.

In Scenario A, Perhaps the rogues key to destroying all normal vampires and the covenant is to destroy Molag Bal which would destroy all vampires or revert them to human if they have any normal life span left in them. So if they are 2000 years old they would turn to dust on the spot, if they have only been a vamp for 10 years they would return to a human and age 10 years, etc. Since rogues are a new blood line created with a new serum, they would not be affected by Molag Bal's destruction.

There could be an awesome fight with the covenant to reach Molag Bal's tomb and kill him destroying the covenant instantly. Maybe that is why the rogues are recruiting mass quantities of humans so much, so they can use sheer numbers. If one rogue can reach the tomb and put a stake in Molag Bal, they win. So their plan says that even if ancient vamps are super fast, strong, etc, they cannot be in two places at once, so if enough rogues stormed in they could destroy Molag Bal (who is in resting and all dried up, but protected by the covenant).

In Scenario B, Perhaps Molag Bal has no weaknesses, and the key to the rogues fixing their serum is to get Molag Bal's blood. I think that Molag Bal would be tired of living, and be kept safely in the covenant's tombs. He is alive, but dried up like in queen of the damned or in underworld. He cannot be killed in that form, he/she would have to be given blood and re-activated then their blood would be needed for the serum, or they would need to be destroyed so all normal vamps die.

With scenario B, getting Molag Bal's blood would give the rogues the blood and quests they need to become the new all power vampire breed, and defeat the elder council of the covenant and perhaps even molag bal, etc. I doubt even with a serum that give them Molag's power that they could destroy him forever, maybe just banish him to Oblivion since he/she is part deadra. But by destroying him somehow, it destroys all normal vampires that don't have the new rogue virus.

Personally, I kind of like scenario A a little better. Its like the rogues attempt to become all mighty and powerful has failed, and their only option is to use sheer numbers and try to destroy molag Bal.

I'd like to read all the lore on Molag Bal. Can someone link me to any info about him/her? Cast your votes too on what scenario you like better.

I think perhaps getting Molag Bal's blood would be a little more lore friendly since you can't destroy a daedra in any permanent sense. His blood would obviously be a trick from him though, he is the enslaver of souls afterall. The blood would make the new vamps powerful, but curse them horribly as well.

And for some reason I can't get the spoiler highlight to work so I won't talk too much about true blood. But I agree with you, the shapeshifter was ok that didn't bother me but maryann was too out there. Especially since everything I know of the god she worshipped made him out to be the god of wine I believe. Either way he wasn't really evil, he did however have evil followers so I guess its not too far off. Maybe there is a king of vampires?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Molag_Bal

You can always make it so that Molag bal isn't really on Tamriel kinda, since Daedric princes aren't allowed in somehow, maybe the covenant has a chalice with his blood which is under heavy guard somewhere in a keep or w/e?

But anyway you make it works good, can't wait

Isn't Molag Bal a daedra?

So he can't die and lives in his own realm.
B would make more sense.

Molag Bal...
To further maximize the plot, I wouldn't ignore the daedra Vaernima. It seems she did some work to alter the bloodlines of the vampires. She at least had the keys to the cure for vampirism for Morrowind's hero, something Molag Bal didn't initially have. Even if you don't use the ideas here, give it a quick read here at http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index1.shtml. Go to "Molag Bal" then follow down to the vampire sub-section, especially the bottom part. In fact everything under Molag Bal is great and inspirational for ideas... just screaming for some great plot.

As it seems vampires are now beyond Molag Bal's control. Doing something to kill him wouldn't necessarily get rid of vampires. Anyways, killing a daedra wouldn't be something a rag-tag group of less intelligent rogues would be able to achieve.

I can't remember where I read it, but I think Molag Bal originally spawned them to be his demonic servants for some battle. After the battle (or after generations), they somehow turned loose. I would think that Molag Bal might be angry with his creation after a while, I'm sure he would love for some rogues to "return to their roots" as his servants. There's needs to be some intelligent force behind these rogues after all.

I'd like to see the rogues claiming to be true vampires under Molag Bal (in which vampires were created as a sort of daedric demon), while the covenant stays away from this sort of gothic "religious fanaticism," maybe with some aid from Vaernima. Maybe even have minor conflict within the group of rogues. There could be rogues are who resist the idea of transformation... they'd rather just be the normal vampire outsiders. But the zealots win out and all the rogues turn into the monsters that please Molag Bal. He can use them against the covenant, which is made up of a bloodline far removed from his original purposes.

I don't like the idea of a serum, sounds to sciency. Now maybe they are amassing numbers for a ritual to open an oblivion gate to Molag Bals realm. Maybe to recieve a legendary artifact created from his blood, or just to get some of his blood somehow.

Then you do a ritual for all the vampires in the rogues to sacrifice themselves, pouring their blood into a pool and then throwing in the artifact/blood, now possibly the leader of the clan, or more immersivly you, dive into the pool after, this transformes you into the new breed.

Im not sure how different you want to make the two questlines , but if the covenant one involves the rogues doing this ritual maybe you could have to find the original vampire, who is burried alive somewhere, she is furious at molag bal for siring her and after the rogues have overpowered several covenant leaders she helps you to destroy them.

Would be cool if you got the violent feed animations working for this ,to see her drink dry and rip apart armies of rogues.

I think you should allow us to transform into mist. It's a great way to make an escape, and it isn't that cheap unless wel can still attack. Have you ever played Lithian's Nature of the Beast mod? It lets vampires turn into a wolf, bat, or mist, very similar to what your mod is going to have. I recommend anyone who's playing a vampire right now to download that mod, it's compatible with most vampire overhauls except the new version of CDM Vamprism. It'll hold you over, trust me.

This mod seems really interesting and I will try it, but can I make one suggestion? Allows us to toggle chapel damage on or off or turn it down because there's two Oblivion quest that require you to enter a chapel, one for the DB and one for the TG.

Turning into mist sounds just as exploitable as an invisibility spell. But my major gripe with such features is that it feels odd that only the player will use morphing (either into a bat, a wolf, mist or whatever) and not the vampire NPC's. Most vampire fiction nowadays doesn't even use morphing vampires anymore and I generally feel that the morphing ideas are more based on rumors and hearsay than anything else. A much more realistic (heh, if that word applies at all!) shapeshift is the Ancient Vampire form that's already in the mod. The physical changes are less dramatic, but do a much better job of showing a vampire's true nature. And they would be accesible to NPC's as well (at least I would think so...).

I can live with the persuasive powers the vampire player receives, as that isn't directly noticable when NPC's would use such a thing and adds to the roleplay in a great way. But with stuff like morphing I think it should be either both the player and NPC's or none at all. Of course, as a player I also may choose not to use the morphs at all....

Just my 2 cents on vampire morphing.

And last but not least: keep the good stuff coming, Madmole!

I don't really like the idea of adding in Molag Bal at all for a couple of reasons
1) He's not a vampire, he's a Daedric Prince that had his way with some mortal woman and her child became the first vampire (or he just made her a vampire for fun). OR he made the first vamp from the corpse of a defeated foe, both origin myths are mentioned. (I think there is even a third myth around but I forget it)
2) Attacking a Daedric Prince in his own plane is suicide, the only reason Mehrunes Dagon didn't destroy the world was because Martin became an avatar of Akatosh and banished him.
3) Do Daedric Princes even have blood? Let's say you somehow do manage to make it into his realm and destroy his armies and avoid his wrath, can you even make him bleed?
4) His realm is a copy of Nirn but everything is in ruins, that would be a lot of work even if you only did a few small areas.

No, you can't kill Molag Bal; seeing as Molag Bal is an extra-planar entity.

Also, any response to this madmole? http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1035895&st=20&p=15024173&#entry15024173, specifically about vampire hunters?

Also, to keep this lore friendly, just stumbled upon this book: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Immortal_Blood. It details various types of vampires found around Tamriel.

These are the relevant portions:
"The next day, he did return with more questions, these ones very specific. He wanted to know about the vampires of eastern Skyrim. I told him about the most powerful tribe, the Volkihar, paranoid and cruel, whose very breath could freeze their victims' blood in the veins. I explained to him how they lived beneath the ice of remote and haunted lakes, never venturing into the world of men except to feed."

"I did as he asked, and once again, his questions taxed my knowledge. There were many tribes to cover. The Bonsamu who were indistinguishable from Bosmer except when seen by candlelight. The Keerilth who could disintegrate into mist. The Yekef who swallowed men whole. The dread Telboth who preyed on children, eventually taking their place in the family, waiting patiently for years before murdering them all in their unnatural hunger."

"I told him what I could. There was but one tribe in Cyrodiil, a powerful clan who had ousted all other competitors, much like the Imperials themselves had done. Their true name was unknown, lost in history, but they were experts at concealment. If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. They were cultured, more civilized than the vampires of the provinces, preferring to feed on victims while they were asleep, unaware."

You definatly are turning the Covenant into the Cyrodiil unnamed vampire clan, ousting the competitors. The rouges, on the other hand, could be any number of faction of vampire; maybe even the so-called "Yekef," or another variant from Highrock, Hammerfel, etc. etc.

Just some ideas.

I wasn't saying its as simple as go to molag bals realm, stab the god like creature, grab some blood and bingo.
But as molag bal was the original creator of the vampires, hence they want to kill him, now as he had his way with a mortal creating a mutant, e.g the first vampire, thats one option for bodily fluids... or as i suggested a much nicer way is through some blood,
Now he may not necessarily have blood, but if there is no lore to confirm this then i don't see the problem. Daedric princes are rulers of daedra, a common daedra drop is a daedra heart, hearts are used to pump blood around the body. If daedra have blood i see no reason why their princes shouldn't.

Now also as for gaining some of this blood, im not saying that they can just easily be harmed in their realm, but the princes are always in conflict with one another, so whos to say you wouldn't be able to do a task for another prince to gain an item of power capable of gaining atleast a drop of blood.

Having an army of rogues attack the daedra and try distract the prince for a moment to do the job.

Now as im sure someone will say, oh he is practically a god, hes omnipotent, he will see you coming and know what your going to do.
It doesn't take a lot of thinking to bypass this, say the prince you get the artifact from will do sometihng to his realm, or you send rogues to attack his followers, etc etc i could go on.

I am merely trying to involve some more vampire related lore ideas to the mod to help tie it to the game. Molag Bal is responsible for the original vamps, madmole likes the idea of new vamps, i am showing this as a nice way it could tie in whilst hopefully leaving most people happy lore wise.

Molag Bal is out of touch with his own vampires. Until he had to deal with another daedra, he didn't even have a cure for vampirism in Morrowind. The intelligent and shrewd vampire elders of the covenant would only seek more independence from Molag Bal. Would they desire to be servants of a daedra? I doubt it. However, the Rogues, who aren't quite as gifted in the brain could easily be manipulated by Molag Bal to serve his own ends. I like the ideas of the rogues "returning to their roots" under Molag Bal. After all, a bunch of brainless monsters need someone with the brains behind them in order to guide their actions to success. In all games as far as I know, there is always someone behind all the brainless zombies pulling the strings. The cunning covenant elders would be able to see through the schemes, while newborn vampires can't and tend to be drawn towards quick power... (at the hidden cost of their own autonomy). And if you as a player wish for that quick monster like power.... well, you could become Molag Bal's favorite servant of destruction.