Unicorns and Immortality and Skyrim

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 2:57 pm

So in the orgy of Skyrim I've watched quite a few fantasy movies in recent weeks. One of which was The Last Unicorn, an old favorite of mine that I hadn't watched since I was a young teen. Watching the movie again was a great experience, but one line in particular stood out to me, and it reminded me of the dragons of Skyrim and Dragonrend. The quote comes from the Last Unicorn herself, after being turned into a woman by Schmendrick, a magician.

"What have you done to me? I'm a unicorn. I'm a unicorn! I wish you had let the Red Bull take me. I wish you had left me to the harpy! I can feel this body dying all around me!...No, but I'm afraid of this human body. More than I was of the Red Bull. Afraid..."

Throughout the rest of the movie, you have a theme running of Lady Amalthea, a cover used by the transformed unicorn, of slowing forgetting who she was, and succumbing to mortal life and mortal emotion. Unicorns in this setting are immortal creatures, and they cannot experience (apparently mortal) feelings like love and regret (although I believe it is mentioned that she can experience sorrow). In the movie, mortality is depicted as almost like a virus that slowly but steadily erodes the unicorn from the outside in. It is clear that the experience is both confusing and painful. It reminds me of when Alduin first succumbed to the Dragonrend:

"Cowardly mortals! What have you done? What twisted words have you created? Trecherous Paarthurnax! My teeth to his neck!"

Well, we know of Dragonrend from Paarthurnax as forcing a dragon to experience mortality. And because they do not understand mortality, its impossible for them to learn it. And although I know experience and understanding to be two different things, I'd like to think that a dragon who survives enough Dragonrend attacks might be able to comprehend mortality eventually. Though this is exactly what happened in The Last Unicorn, when the unicorn is transformed into a human being, she 'learns' mortality, and, upon her re-transformation, remembers it.

Anyway, not completely sure of where I was going with this. Whether it be a philosophical discussion about immortality and mortality as pertains to the Elder Scrolls, or how we view the concepts at large. If you want to take the discussion in either direction, I'm fine with it. Its a common theme in fantasy after all. In many settings, be Elder Scrolls, The Last Unicorn, Harry Potter, etc, Immortality is either depicted neutrally or negatively, and especially as inhuman. Mortality, on the other hand, is genuinely human and good. There's also a idea of strength behind it. Is mortality a weakness, like immortals like the Daedra, dragons, and Voldemort perceive it to be? Or is it a strength?

As a side note, I was thinking about unicorns and how they might be depicted in Skyrim. In Oblivion, the unicorn was depicted as a magical animal, more or less. But, lore-wise, I kind of consider them as the same "breed" as dragons. Immortal children of the Aedra. Maybe I've favoring the King Edward/The Last Unicorn idea of it as a mystical being of great power, but I'd like to hear what you'd prefer. Also, I found myself wondering what Skyrim's rendition of a unicorn might be like. I'm tired of the horse-with-a-horn thing that so many people love. I enjoy much more the traditional rendering of the unicorn (lion's tail, cloven hooves, etc) but also with the creatures from which it was said to be inspired by: http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com/2011/04/three-kinds-of-unicorns.html

What do you think? In keeping with its theme, should Skyrim's unicorn look like a Elasmotherium? Or a Tsaidamotherium? I'd like your imput.

Thanks for swallowing my long winded Thu'um. Cheers and Happy New Year!


EDIT: As an extra thought to chew on, as humanity, in reality, crawls closer and closer to immortality itself, what are we to take from these stories? That immortality is alien? Evil? Will we be like the Daedra, bored and nonchalant, as Imago Storm suggests? Or is it worth keeping?
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Matt Fletcher
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 8:34 pm

So in the orgy of Skyrim I've watched quite a few fantasy movies in recent weeks. One of which was The Last Unicorn, an old favorite of mine that I hadn't watched since I was a young teen. Watching the movie again was a great experience, but one line in particular stood out to me, and it reminded me of the dragons of Skyrim and Dragonrend. The quote comes from the Last Unicorn herself, after being turned into a woman by Schmendrick, a magician.[indent]

"What have you done to me? I'm a unicorn. I'm a unicorn! I wish you had let the Red Bull take me. I wish you had left me to the harpy! I can feel this body dying all around me!...No, but I'm afraid of this human body. More than I was of the Red Bull. Afraid..."[/indent]
Throughout the rest of the movie, you have a theme running of Lady Amalthea, a cover used by the transformed unicorn, of slowing forgetting who she was, and succumbing to mortal life and mortal emotion. Unicorns in this setting are immortal creatures, and they cannot experience (apparently mortal) feelings like love and regret (although I believe it is mentioned that she can experience sorrow). In the movie, mortality is depicted as almost like a virus that slowly but steadily erodes the unicorn from the outside in. It is clear that the experience is both confusing and painful. It reminds me of when Alduin first succumbed to the Dragonrend:
[indent]
"Cowardly mortals! What have you done? What twisted words have you created? Trecherous Paarthurnax! My teeth to his neck!"[/indent]

Well, we know of Dragonrend from Paarthurnax as forcing a dragon to experience mortality. And because they do not understand mortality, its impossible for them to learn it. And although I know experience and understanding to be two different things, I'd like to think that a dragon who survives enough Dragonrend attacks might be able to comprehend mortality eventually. Though this is exactly what happened in The Last Unicorn, when the unicorn is transformed into a human being, she 'learns' mortality, and, upon her re-transformation, remembers it.

Anyway, not completely sure of where I was going with this. Whether it be a philosophical discussion about immortality and mortality as pertains to the Elder Scrolls, or how we view the concepts at large. If you want to take the discussion in either direction, I'm fine with it. Its a common theme in fantasy after all. In many settings, be Elder Scrolls, The Last Unicorn, Harry Potter, etc, Immortality is either depicted neutrally or negatively, and especially as inhuman. Mortality, on the other hand, is genuinely human and good. There's also a idea of strength behind it. Is mortality a weakness, like immortals like the Daedra, dragons, and Voldemort perceive it to be? Or is it a strength?

As a side note, I was thinking about unicorns and how they might be depicted in Skyrim. In Oblivion, the unicorn was depicted as a magical animal, more or less. But, lore-wise, I kind of consider them as the same "breed" as dragons. Immortal children of the Aedra. Maybe I've favoring the King Edward/The Last Unicorn idea of it as a mystical being of great power, but I'd like to hear what you'd prefer. Also, I found myself wondering what Skyrim's rendition of a unicorn might be like. I'm tired of the horse-with-a-horn thing that so many people love. I enjoy much more the traditional rendering of the unicorn (lion's tail, cloven hooves, etc) but also with the creatures from which it was said to be inspired by: http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com/2011/04/three-kinds-of-unicorns.html

What do you think? In keeping with its theme, should Skyrim's unicorn look like a Elasmotherium? Or a Tsaidamotherium? I'd like your imput.

Thanks for swallowing my long winded Thu'um. Cheers and Happy New Year!
Holy Crap the picture of your link gaved me an hearh atack.Anyway about Alduin learning with the mortals...i don't think that's going to happen.As a member on these forums said,when the armies of Mehrunes invaded Tamriel,he was impressed by the ability of the mortal soldiers of killing his immortal soldiers.On my opnion since mortals can "die",they need to learn.Now Dremora Lords,they don't have to worry with that,since they are "immortal" they lack ability with strengh.
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luke trodden
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:18 pm

Dragonrend, the shout created by mortals that was forged with concepts only understood by mortals, and tempered with utter contempt for dragons. The the words of power are Joor Zah Frul or in the common tongue, Mortal Finite Temporary. These are things divines do not comprehend, with Shor being the most likely exception, as it is completely foreign to them. Upon using the shout, the concept and application is forced into the very being of the divine, and it's a very painful concept to them.
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Elisha KIng
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:56 pm

This argument was brought up in another thread and it has some use here. I will heavily paraphrase it.

Basically, when the Dragonborn learns words, he accepts the words into his soul and being. Arngeir explains this in his attempt to dissuade you from learning dragonrend. Essentially, when you learn the words to dragonrend (Finite-Mortal-Temporary), you are surrendering yourself to your mortality.

Even if a Dragon could learn dragonrend, I don't think it would be in their interest. After all, they would have to give up their mortality to learn something that really only works on dragons (though I guess it could work on all immortal beings). It would be the ultimate backstabbing to their kin, and the dragon that learns dragonrend would ultimately lose.
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jodie
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:35 pm

Which is why it's the only shout meant for mortals, as they're constantly faced and understand this reality. To mortals, mortality is something even more natural than breathing. Plus, the shout was created out of utter hatred for the dragons, and to take in the shout, one takes in that hatred.
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Rhi Edwards
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:45 pm

Well, I wasn't suggesting so much that Dragons could learn the shout as much as I was that they could eventually understand mortality, and thus be immune to the Shout's effects. Though perhaps the capacity to do so is beyond their nature.
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butterfly
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:06 am

On another line of thought, I like the idea of immortals and their (mis)understanding of life and death. Aedra gave up themselves into Lorkhan's Project, and whether you call it Love or Sacrifice or Trickery, there are now mortals striving for something greater (not all of them do, but some. Or few). The Daedra are there just to observe and tinker, and if possible, feel Regret (or sorrow?), a shadow of love's possibilities. Like that Unicorn. So that when the next kalpa rolls around, the princes are ready to play the roles of Aedra (as far as Boethiah's Summoning Day thread goes). And they won't be able to feel love until they take the plunge.

Some theme about immortals not understanding Struggle or Change or something. Then again, I've watched a bit of Highlander, and the immortals understand humanity better than normal folk (probably because they ARE human, though, for all intents and purposes other than death). At least, the good immortals do; otherwise they get all evil or jaded.
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Epul Kedah
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:41 pm

Paarthanax says mortality is something completely and utterly alien. Paarth could learn the words, but could never use it, as dragons, by their very nature of being divine and immortal, just cannot comprehend it. Being shouted at with Dragonrend forces that concept into them, and essentially breaks them. Though, if I were a betting man, I'd gander to say only Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan would be the only divine who actually comprehends it. The other aedra likely know about it, and have felt it, but is likely alien too. At best, a divine would just know that limit = bad.

Even daedra cannot comprehend mortality, and are very confused as to why mortals just do not simply give up entirely if life has an expiration date.
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Juan Suarez
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:52 am

Though, if I were a betting man, I'd gander to say only Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan would be the only divine who actually comprehends it. The other aedra likely know about it, and have felt it, but is likely alien too. At best, a divine would just know that limit = bad.

Even daedra cannot comprehend mortality, and are very confused as to why mortals just do not simply give up entirely if life has an expiration date.

At this point, I'd add that Lorkhan was probably the only one, or one of few(?), that felt out of place in black-white Aurbis. Then he was the only one that saw that [Tower], thought it was awesome, and forced back some Gray into the cosmos. Cuz mortality/or hurting ourselves??/ struggle is good.

Not sure.

[edit. Hemingway would drive immortals bonkers.]
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Tania Bunic
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:33 pm

Even daedra cannot comprehend mortality, and are very confused as to why mortals just do not simply give up entirely if life has an expiration date.

Which makes me wonder if dragonrend could ever work on Daedra, unless dragonrend only works by hatred for dragons, If it does, you'd think that some Thu'um user could build up enough hate for all things immortal to make a particularly nasty shout.
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N Only WhiTe girl
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:22 am

Though, if I were a betting man, I'd gander to say only Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan would be the only divine who actually comprehends it. The other aedra likely know about it, and have felt it, but is likely alien too. At best, a divine would just know that limit = bad.

Well, that's only natural. Lorkhan came up with the idea for mortality, after all. And because an Et'ada invented the concept, you'd think that other Et'ada would, eventually, be able to know it too. I'm not at all denying that mortality is foreign to dragons and against their nature, but even the mountain eventually bows to the wind and rain, so to speak.

I'm starting to think though... was the Blight something like Dragonrend in reverse? Mortals experiencing immortality and suffering?
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My blood
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 7:59 pm

they could eventually understand mortality, and thus be immune to the Shout's effects.
Understanding the shout doesn't prevent its effects from working. Being able to use a shout requires comprehending and understanding the concepts embodied by the words (the better your understanding, the stronger the effect), but being able to use a shout doesn't prevent that shout from working on you. So even if a dragon could understand mortality and non-infinity, the shout would still make them temporarily mortal.
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Lucky Girl
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 8:13 pm

That was a really interesting link, thanks.
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GRAEME
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:47 pm

I suddenly remember coming across an article just like that, except not unicorns. Dragons. The idea that ancient Man were scared of huge birds, predatory cats, and crocodiles-snakes. So they all fused into the Dragon. Four legged serpent with wings!
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tegan fiamengo
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 7:17 pm

I'm starting to think though... was the Blight something like Dragonrend in reverse? Mortals experiencing immortality and suffering?
I assume that in Dagoth Ur's part when he observe and meddle with the Heart of Lorkhan.
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Del Arte
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:36 pm

Understanding the shout doesn't prevent its effects from working. Being able to use a shout requires comprehending and understanding the concepts embodied by the words (the better your understanding, the stronger the effect), but being able to use a shout doesn't prevent that shout from working on you. So even if a dragon could understand mortality and non-infinity, the shout would still make them temporarily mortal.

That seems contradictory, due to the nature of the shout though. The whole point of Dragonrend is to overwhelm the dragon by forcing him to understand/experience immortality. But if the Dragon has already come to understand/experience it, surely the shout is not nearly as traumatic.

That was a really interesting link, thanks.

You're welcome.

I suddenly remember coming across an article just like that, except not unicorns. Dragons. The idea that ancient Man were scared of huge birds, predatory cats, and crocodiles-snakes. So they all fused into the Dragon. Four legged serpent with wings!

I heard an argument before arguing that Protoceratops fossils inspired stories of the gryffon. Fossils have long been tied to inspiring stories of giants, dragons, etc, however, so it wasn't particularly new.
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Steph
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 7:21 pm

That seems contradictory, due to the nature of the shout though. The whole point of Dragonrend is to overwhelm the dragon by forcing him to understand/experience immortality. But if the Dragon has already come to understand/experience it, surely the shout is not nearly as traumatic.
Force them to understand it through experiencing it. Whether the shout is traumatic is a secondary, as the purpose is to make them physically mortal and vulnerable enough to kill them. Just like understanding fire's destructive nature doesn't prevent the fire from damaging you, understanding mortality doesn't prevent you from becoming vulnerable.
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Cameron Wood
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 6:04 pm

If dragons don't comprehend mortality to begin with; are the words to dragonrend created by mortals ?

Since they like driving the point that dragons have no concept of those things; and lack past/future in that speech tenses on and on :shrug:
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Peetay
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 6:34 pm

Yes, Dragonrend was shout created by mortals. Paarth tells you this upfront, and admits he doesn't quite understand it, as the concept of mortality is alien to him.
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FoReVeR_Me_N
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:57 pm

Yes, Dragonrend was shout created by mortals. Paarth tells you this upfront, and admits he doesn't quite understand it, as the concept of mortality is alien to him.

I ment the words specifically "Mortal Finite Temporary"; as if they didn't exist in the language before they were used in Dragonrend. In such a way that mortals can make up words in the dragon language?

Or maybe the words don't matter at all ? rather the experience you put behind a shout ?
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Stephani Silva
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 12:20 am

I'd say the latter, directed in the form of words to express the power behind the meaning. After all Dragonrend was a shout forged by mortals with the concept that Shor created: limit.
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Cesar Gomez
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 12:19 am

Whether the shout is traumatic is a secondary, as the purpose is to make them physically mortal and vulnerable enough to kill them. Just like understanding fire's destructive nature doesn't prevent the fire from damaging you, understanding mortality doesn't prevent you from becoming vulnerable.

Well, for Alduin sure, but none of the other dragons require it to be killed. They're immortal, but in the Tolkien-Elf sense of things, not in the Daedric sense. They can be wounded, captured, and killed. Their immortality is rooted, in that sense, in their inability to age or deteriorate naturally. Eventual death isn't something inherent to their nature.

I guess I understand though that being mortal would weaken them. In the fact that they would feel aging and bodily deterioration, a feeling magnified by the fact that they've never experienced it before. But, as we mortals know, its not all that bad. They could get used to it. Humans and Elves and Beastfolk have. Its like the difference between someone who has been blind their whole life, and someone who gets their eyes gouged out in a torture room.

Unless, of course, we can say that the feeling of aging and deterioration is accelerated, because the dragons are so old to begin with (ala Dorian Gray). Then I completely understand what you're saying. And it makes sense to tie Dragonrend to "If you shake a dragon just so".
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KRistina Karlsson
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 6:19 pm



I ment the words specifically "Mortal Finite Temporary"; as if they didn't exist in the language before they were used in Dragonrend. In such a way that mortals can make up words in the dragon language?

Or maybe the words don't matter at all ? rather the experience you put behind a shout ?

The words themselves probably predates Dragonrend. The whole philosophy behind the Shout (making an immortal experience mortality) itself was made by the mortals. Like when you get one of the Shout upgrade thingies from Parth, he tells you the philosophy behind the word.
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leni
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 2:11 am

Which makes me wonder if dragonrend could ever work on Daedra, unless dragonrend only works by hatred for dragons, If it does, you'd think that some Thu'um user could build up enough hate for all things immortal to make a particularly nasty shout.
Only if someone created some kind of "dragonend shout" that worked only on the daedra...I really don't think that's impossible.But i can't imagine a shout weakend the a "Daedric Prince" forcing him to fight mortals with fair ways.
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Charlotte Henderson
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:12 pm

The words themselves probably predates Dragonrend. The whole philosophy behind the Shout (making an immortal experience mortality) itself was made by the mortals. Like when you get one of the Shout upgrade thingies from Parth, he tells you the philosophy behind the word.
"What twisted words have you created?" is what Alduin says to the nord heroes when he's hit with dragonrend for the first time.
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Mario Alcantar
 
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