I've played everything from Forgotten Realms ans Dragonlance in the late 80's, both computer and real RPG, up to and including Skyrim (not Dragon Age, however). I would seriously hesitate to call Skyrim or Fallout an RPG, or most other computer games for that matter. Having played table top RPGs, most any computer game falls remarkably far from that definition.

If you don't think SPECIAL is one of the most iconic features of Fallout, then I don't know you've been playing. RPGs aren't about having the perfect set of mechanics and cutting away any "fluff" that doesn't have a direct impact on the game mechanics. Having a character sheet with stats and skills and perks and gear, that's where the whole RPG genre started. I'm not saying it shouldn't develop, cause all things do, but cutting a game in to the bone and removing RPG features for the sake of "streamlining" a game is definitely not how I would like to see it develop.

Intelligence is far from an arbritary stat. From it you derive a person's ability to learn, to remember, to understand and plethora of personality features. Saying that it's arbitrary...yeah, I'm just gonna leave that one there. If I want to play a dumb character, a low intelligence would be a good way to reflect his lack of ability to do all the things I just mentioned. And having some dialogue options that suits that would be essential.

You strike me as a gamer who needs to get from A-Z in the fastest and most efficient way possible, so why don't you go play Mario Kart?

I didn't say intelligence is important to Fallout just that in some RPGs it is.

You sound like you would not be very fun at parties with your negativity. Haha Friggin' guy.

Get rid of SPECIAL and Fallout 4 is no longer Fallout. The same can be said for Vaults, Ghouls, Super Mutants, and Deathclaws as long as Fallout is set in America.

I do, I played it for hundreds of hours and its character system was the worst thing about it. Dumping stats in TES is the worst design choice done by Bethesda. It's shallow, meaningless and doesn't portray the PC properly.

SPECIAL still remains so yes, I'd like people to stop demands of removing it. The rest of your claims needs to wait before they can be verified. In any case, you represent everything that's going wrong with Bethesda games: An audience demanding open world shooters. I'd say your interest is placed in the wrong game as well, STALKER is more to your taste apparently.

Reading this thread has caused a -2 drop in Int.

Haha This guy.

This. lol

I'm gonna drop some Mentats and fix that! Oh, wait, I don't have an I no more! D'oh!

Being intelligent means that you are better at grasping things, that what I meant with "understanding", and sciene was just an example. Simply said, when someone explains to you e.g. the theory of relativity he needs to repeat stuff less often for you to understand what he means (if you understand it at all) the smarter you are. Or if you have a blueprint for crafting, to deduct what all those symbols on it mean requires some intelligence.

True, there is not one intelligence but several different areas where you can have different levels of intelligence. And there is also be big question how intelligence is measured as this is not a simple task and there are several different intelligence "tests" measuring different stuff. But game worlds are a simplification of the real world. So intelligence gets reduced to some arbitrary number because otherwise game development would not be feasible anymore when you want to include all facetes of intelligence. Also often intelligence gets mixed with knowledge (e.g. in movies the "smart" kid that knows everything by heart, which has nothing to do with intelligence), which again makes sense in game development to keep stuff simple and doable. You can only compare the real world to game worlds to some extend. A game world depicting the real world in all its details is just not doable.

Intelligence is defined as your cognitive capability, which when you are growing up is increasing. And when you are getting old it decreases. If you are training while growing up it increases more, and when you are training while getting older, it decreases slower.

Sure there are many ways to achieve the same, but not all are feasible. And there will be always people who disagree. And that the level cap has been removed has nothing to do with it. You need to reach at least level 200+ to master everything which I am pretty sure will only be reached by a very small minority.

Pretty sure the overly sensitive "correctness" police have banished any hope of a low INT dialog... The irony is that the one group you CAN make fun of that likely can't tell you are mocking them are the mentally challenged (not saying it's ok to do so, just a bit humorous in a situation aspect).

I'd almost have assumed the character's dialogue in the demo was already the unintelligent one.

"uhh... dead? dude, 200 years? make me sammich"

All delivered in a flat, vaguely disaffected monotone.

I'd love dumb dialogue but I don't think 1 as a stat is going to be as bad as it was in past games. By giving us less points in the character creation they've basically shifted the average stat from 5 to 4.

And yet preferable to recordings by Carrot Top?

The best you can do to please as many people as possible (or displease as few people as possible) is to streamline for the most average you can think of.

True enough I suppose. Maybe we'll have the option of a hysterical grief stricken parent too.

Nonsense. They can't (and very well shouldn't) talk about our idiot player character as though they were legitimately disabled... but you'll be hard-pressed to find an idiotic character that people immediately assumed was mocking the mentally challenged. With the voiced protagonist, the best way to go about idiot dialog would probably be more like Phillip J. Fry: instead of being relegated to grunts, our character can sound neutral (in terms of intelligence), but we frequently make comically clueless comments. That was one of the weird things about idiot dialog in New Vegas; one minute you're speaking like a regular person, the next you're a grunting cave man. Wasn't perfectly consistent.

Not surprising since he just woke up from a 200 year nap. Stories with Suspended Animation usually have some medical personnel help the protagonist get adjusted to the future while all we have seen is the protagonist pick up a pip-boy from a decayed corpse.

This is because your understanding of the term RPG is incredibly narrow and stringent. Again, why are you interested in Fallout 4 when it is being developed by the very developer you claim makes terrible RPGs?

I think the setting and themes of Fallout are what make it iconic and special. War never changes. Not some arbitrary and outdated RPG mechanic from twenty years ago that most could care less about. Your problem is you see what is evolution of the RPG as "streamlining." You realize old school RPGs were largely stat-driven and less action-oriented due to limitations in latency, hardware, etc.? The entire turn-based genre largely exists because developers could not make real-time experiences in a compelling way. Stats such as block, dodge, parry, etc. were incorporated into RPGs because developers could not have the player physically do those things in the game. These features are still very much alive in the RPG, but they are concepts the player controls rather than some stat sheet to determine a character's "progression."

Intelligence as it pertains to Fallout is a ridiculous stat. The fact that any stat could provide an experience gain increase is by its very definition game breaking as anyone would be stupid (not a pun) to not put an ample amount of points into intelligence. Again, actions rather than an arbitrary number should determine one's "intelligence." I shouldn't be unable to hack a computer because my "science stat isn't 100" or my "intelligence isn't high enough." I may be an amateur or poor at hacking without a certain threshold, but that should not preclude me from the activity entirely. That doesn't even make remote sense. That is idiotic design and the opposite of intelligent.

I'm the kind of gamer who likes rational and well-reasoned game design that actually makes sense and moves the game play experience forward. I do not like clutter, fluff, or other means that merely deter or bog down the point of the game. "SPECIAL" is becoming increasingly irrelevant and its antiquated means are showing. You are more than welcome to maintain a narrow-minded perspective of 30 years ago while the rest of us realize times are changing.

You referenced pen and paper RPGs as their "evidence" that RPGs use an intelligence stat. I provided ample evidence that video game RPGs (cRPGs, JRPGs, or otherwise) rarely have such a stat for obvious reasons. Just because I happen to have a different opinion from your own does not make me negative or you "right."

I've heard this before. "Get rid of the isometic camera and the game is no longer Fallout." Well that already happened bud. Fallout is whatever BGS wants Fallout to be, regardless of your own "ideals." SPECIAL, like everything else, is subject to change or removal. The only thing that is constant about Fallout is the fact it is a futuristic America based on 1950s ideals that was massacred by nuclear destruction. Anything and everything is open to change.

I think BGS would disagree seeing as Skyrim is the most successful and popular game they have ever developed. Your own narrow-minded understanding of an RPG in no way proves "[d]umping stats in TES [was bad game] design." What it does prove is that you are in the minority and your understanding of an RPG is vastly outweighed by others.

I've been playing BGS games since Morrowind in 2002. I have played all of their games even going back to Arena. If anyone has an appreciation for BGS and how they design games, it would be me. I'm more than happy with most of the design choices BGS has made to improve their games well over a decade. If you are not happy, perhaps you should go back to pen and paper RPGs?

Intelligence is increasingly becoming irrelevant. The removal of skills and the removal of a level cap shows BGS recognizes the pitfalls of the stat. It may still be in Fallout 4, but he writing is on the wall that it will likely be removed come Fallout 5. Interpret "intelligence" how you like. It has never been appropriate nor made since in Fallout. I'd rather they just outright remove it and develop something that actually works.

Bethesda did it themselves, they wouldn't agree with me in their right minds, it's only logical for a business to not badmouth their latest product. I'm rather open-minded about RPG systems but that doesn't mean I should embrace new merely because it's new. If it's bad, it needs to be criticized. You keep saying the word RPG but I'm unsure if you like the genre at all, since you denounce its basic, staple requirements and ask for a shooter.

Yeah, I've played them all as well. That's why I can recognize when and where they're slipping and where they're improving. If I'm not happy, I'll voice my concerns on their forum. If you're not happy with Fallout's very core systems, then maybe you should go over to Borderlands or something, because apparently stats and stuff are all about "how fast do I kill this enemy" for you.

I agree with your opinion on how intelligence pertains to Fallout 4. One would have to be an idiot to not put it at 10. Also I never had it below 5 in Fallout 3 or New Vegas.

Pen and paper RPGs do use intelligence, I realize most video games don't but video games aren't the only type of rpg. I was saying you're not fun at parties because you constantly disagree lol not because I believe you're wrong.

Also I play a lot of pen and paper plus a lot of video games. To me personally I don't give a flying fartcicle if S.P.E.C.I.A.L is removed all together. I'd still play Bethesda games because I can just use my imagination to roleplay if I chose to. Something a lot of people these days it seems utterly lack (not saying you do just people in general with how they whine about so much).

Your problem is your failure to recognize BGS' Fallout is more than just an RPG. BGS has always made first person games going back to Arena in 1994. It's what they are known for. The fact that there were shooter mechanics in a first person game makes it obvious that there should be quality first person shooter mechanics. This is really elementary.

Your narrow-minded perspective does not believe meshing more than one genre together is possible. What was stringent, limited, and niche, has been transformed into something grander, more appealing, and more innovative offering a plethora of features across boundaries. Progression is important, but not when numbers become the game rather than the players achievements and experiences through that period.

There is no "skill" in min/maxing. Anyone can do it. There is "skill" in tactics, strategy, hand-eye coordination, and how you approach a situation. BGS could certainly learn from Borderlands, although I didn't personally like that franchise as I found it to be boring. I'm actually very happy with the direction Fallout is going as a franchise. It seems to me you are the one who is actually disgruntled.

I think the difference is people buy an experience for developers to make for them. They aren't buying a blank canvas so they have to create the experience for themselves. Personally, I just want BGS to give me a compelling world to explore, give me a compelling story, and then I'll handle the rest. I don't need any cumbersome systems that get in the way of my experience. I just want features that make sense and add rather than take away from the game. I don't believe SPECIAL is entirely devoid of value, just that some stats, such as intelligence, are becoming increasingly irrelevant and alternatives should be considered.

See this I can absolutely agree with. Especially this section: "Personally, I just want BGS to give me a compelling world to explore, give me a compelling story, and then I'll handle the rest." That's all I really care about in Bethesda games. I also don't really need skills or what not it would be different if having a low skill with guns actually made my character be terrible at using them. For example if he struggled to reload or even to have accurate shots. Since things like that don't effect it and the skill only really effects damage I don't really care if it even exists or not.

Int provides an increase in experience because you are better able to understand what you are experiencing.
Intelligence would help determine, if you are shown a task, how well you might retain the sequence of events in that task. Ergot, you can become experienced in doing things at a faster rate; not as much time is needed to get the concepts down.

I will say the idea of needing [x] skill level for hacking was a bit sloppy. Of course you;d be able to attempt and get locked out of a terminal you were hacking at such a low level. The reason they did it though was because their hacking minigame was not hard to beat, so long as you could access it.
That isn't the fault of the Int stat itself, though. I believe that may be a bit different this time around at any rate.

Though, no matter how it is implemented, Int would be the stat that effects hacking. So, it is hardly "useless".

Aside from that, in a conversation, Int is going to determine how the information given is processed. If the PC can't fathom the subject matter that the other speaker is saying, they certainly shouldn't be able to answer as if they do.
If you are roleplaying a Tank/Brawler (or anyone who by virtue of their nature would have taken many blows to the head) You might have a fairly low Int character.
I for one would like dialogues that reflected that build design, if I chose to make it.
No facts or opinions about what is or isn't RP'ing sway that- it would be nice to have that depth.

I never had it above 6 or 7 because that makes it too easy and you max out real quick. I won't be putting it higher than 4 or 5 in FO4 either, because I have no interest in powergaming for max XP. It's not a race to reach the end of the game. Saying that you'd have to be an idiot to not put 10 in I entirely depends on what your goal is. I'm playing to have fun, not to "beat the game". That's unfortunately the kind of attitude BSG seems to be catering to with their later titles, but I'm still hoping for a good amount of fun. At least when the mods come out.

Fair enough, I guess I was speaking in terms to dialog in the game as I highly doubt it'll be effected by intelligence at all other than your character if their intelligence is high enough may get access to unique things. I wasn't really thinking there in terms of power levelling. Although I don't mind levelling fast.

I certainly wouldn't mind it if it's in. However, if you give the dialogue in F1 and F2 the slightest amount of thought, that level of unintelligent dialogue just doesn't make sense - especially sense it's tied to intelligence. I know a bunch of idiots, but all of them can piece together sentences that use correct tenses, subject/verb agreements, pronouns, and so on - at least 95% of time.

A person who can't even piece together a coherent sentence either 1) doesn't have enough intelligence to carry out some of the more basic tasks needed for the PC to complete F1 and F2, or 2) has some communication disorder which isn't necessarily tied to intelligence.

So now we're at a crossroads - the unintelligent dialogue of F1 and F2 was funny and a nice touch, but at its core, it's a gimmick. To make it real enough to be believable, it would likely become so nuanced, that it would stop being noticeable and immersive. Still, if you enjoy it and they put it in, more power to you - doesn't impact my game (and potentially makes it better).