Over the last few days we've been churning out some simply phenomenal and highly intelligent posts concerning the individual factions at play in the Mojave Wasteland. A lot of heartfelt opinions have been expressed, points have been made, refutations have been made, ect. In general I find myself impressed and I actually can't wait when I get home every day to log onto the forums here and see who's saying what and what new - and old - threads have fired into life.

I browsed the forum rules before posting this and I'm certain it will be dangerously close to a "Forum Game" and while I don't think it will actually cross the line, that's for the Moderators to decide and won't be fussing or surprised if I log on later and find the thread has been locked because of it, it is not my responsibility to fight the interpretation of the rules as outlined by those who enforce them.

I've gotten to thinking over this abysmally boring work day about diplomacy and thought I could come up with an exercise in diplomacy and debating skills as SEVERAL individuals on this forum have extremely good strength in both.

The premise is simple :

The Mojave Conflict is nearing it's boiling point and about to spill over into the full blown war we're playing through in New Vegas. For vaguely defined reasons, the leadership of the big factions is willing to appoint a trusted Ambassador to determine their final stance in this conflict - will concessions be made, or will the "total war" vote be pushed through regardless? In addition, I'd like to set some sort of speculative "boost" to factions that are unrepresented in the core game like a stronger proponent of Independent Vegas or a substantial Enclave force, or communication resuming between the Mojave Brotherhood Chapter with other nearby chapters allowing them to be a significant contestant in the grand scheme of things. These sort of reasons could be extreme public outcry of "Kimball's War" for the N.C.R, it could be Caesar having a rare second thought if he could beat all comers when his opposition has the potential to be more than just the N.C.R at once, maybe Mr. House is rethinking his "I'm the only one who can get the job done" disposition and willing to re-negotiate. I'll let devoted fans of the other factions try and come up with their own reasoning for the others.

An Ambassador for each faction would have to be nominated and then supported by a few others. This person will have their particular "character" serving as Ambassador in the debate and discussion and be the one most responsible for their faction's future. The Ambassador would also be able to appoint Aides to provide additional coverage / viewpoints / refutations that wouldn't have an immediate impact if the Ambassador was saying them. The Ambassador would have a unique opportunity to decide the course of the Mojave Wasteland that doesn't run relevant to the actual New Vegas game.

Just sort of interested in seeing how it would all play out and what alliances would be forged or broken, and the inevitable outcome they would have. For the sake of this exercise, Mr. House has received his Platinum Chip from a reliable human agent, but the Courier themselves lay dead in their shallow grave in Goodsprings. I leave the particular "flavor" of the Enclave to whomever is their Ambassador. The Followers of the Apocalypse are making a push for Independent Vegas and are backed by the Kings, Westside, and North Vegas' citizen militias, and are trying to get their voices heard diplomatically. The Great Khans could have merged with the Powder Gangers and are using the Fiends as their additional muscle, I don't know too much on that front. I actually don't expect the Great Khans to get much in the way of support and might be excused from the exercise.

Providing this doesn't get shut down as a "Forum Game" rather than an intellectual exercise, my nominations would be thus. I'd nominate myself for N.C.R but I can't stand nominating myself for anything.

The Enclave : The Enclave
N.C.R : TBA
Caesar's Legion : Gaberiel77dan
Mr. House : Colonel Martyr
Followers of the Apocalypse / Independent Vegas : Tycho the Wanderer
The Great Khans : TBA
Brotherhood of Steel Chapters : TBA

UPDATE : Current nominees by popular vote. Subject to actual participation
N.C.R - Styles (2)
Mr. House - Colonel Martyr (3)
Caesar's Legion - Gaberiel77dan (3)
The Great Khans - Sebor13 (1)
The Enclave - The Enclave (2)
Brotherhood of Steel - The Lone Ranger (1)
Followers of the Apocalypse / Independent Vegas - Tycho the Wanderer (1)

Call me Crazy, but I would nominate The Enclave for The Enclave.

Caesars Legion: Gaberiel77dan

NCR: Styles

House: Martyr

Indie: don't know

BoS: Don't know

Khans: don't know

Good nominations for the Enclave and Caesar's Legion. I had to steal those. I know who I'd like them to make their Aides as well because I have to say, there's a lot of really well thought, vocal, intelligent proponents for both factions.

Obviously the nominee would have to accept the responsibility / time investment into the experiment, of course.

The Enclave compromises with no one. If whoever represents the Enclave even tries to forge any diplomatic relations with mutants, I'll pout, gather my troops and evacuate the main base to stage a last-ditch defense.

I feel there's a tagline in there somewhere. "The Enclave never surrenders, never compromises, and never pouts." I can see it on a pretty slick recruitment poster.

[Edit]: For the sake of the exercise though, the "wage unending war" option is always available. No good debate is complete without someone standing up, yelling "You're all DEAD!" and storming out.

Which is the sole mission of the Enclave :nod:

EDIT: Ah, hell, it might be fun after all.

Enclave: Pistolero

Caesars Legion: Gabriel77dan

NCR: Styles

House: Colonel Martyr

Indie: Not really sure who supports this, I do, but I'm not nominating myself

BoS: The Lone Ranger

Khans: Sebor13

If no one nominated for the Enclave position would care to participate in the experiment then by all means, they can be taken out of the experiment. Can't have a side in a debate without a willing debater, and the three of you are definitely who I'd have in mind to serve the position, it'd be a damn shame for someone with inferior knowledge to steal the seat and make a mini-mockery of the whole faction as that is so very, very not the point.

I'm flattered :laugh:

So what is this experiment basically? Some sort of platform debate?

If Colonel Matyr is representing House I would like to nominate myself to represent the Great Khans.

I imagine it would go down like this:

NCR:"Vegas is ours."
CL:"Hush profligate, Vegas is Caesars!"
House:"Greedy Savages, Vegas is mine."
Indy:"GTFO House, its ours!"
BOS:"Listen to the Codex!"
Khans:"Bitter springs was bad!"

And the best for last:
The Enclave:(Tosses in a Plasma grenade)

I'd follow that lead Pistolero. *Loads heavey incinerator*

Mr. Enclave would already be there, I doubt he'd even come to debate talks. :tongue:

The idea of the experiment is that you, or rather, a character you make (not the Courier, but a trusted ambassador / right hand of the faction leader) is in discussion with similar folks representing other factions. The "ideal" goal for everyone is to get a little bit of something out of the Mojave Conflict without flushing anymore resources or lives into it, but that's just speculative on my part. YOU create the platform you want to argue and can choose to be moved to other people's arguments and make alterations to yours. As I mentioned with the Enclave folks, "Nope, I'm right, you're wrong, and I'll see you on the front lines." is a valid departure from the debate at any time if you think that's the best way to handle your faction.

As said, it's an experiment to see what would happen if people other than the devs got a say in all this. Would the events of New Vegas still have to come to pass? Or can some valid, solid reasoning sway the course of history? Who knows! That's the fun of it. Well, hopeful fun. I've seen a lot of quality debates on these forums to reason that other people would find it fun to participate in / watch as well.

Make different policies! Forge different alliances! Who knows!

I'll give an example platform for the N.C.R that I was thinking of :

Leave us Hoover Dam and we won't try to expand any further into the Mojave Wasteland or further East. We'll keep power flowing to The Strip and Vegas.
We'll expand into the North-West as the Legion holds the South-West
Withdraw troops other than to protect Hoover Dam and secure a straight line of convoy to Hoover Dam. No more scattered camps everywhere. Any N.C.R towns stay N.C.R towns.
Cessation of hostilities with the Brotherhood of Steel IF they stop eyeballing our technological positions. As a position of strength, we keep HELIOS One since we already bled for it.
Open to trade / commerce discussions with Mr. House and the Legion.

I can see it now- all sides' representatives and ambassadors seated around a big table, glaring at each other...

Moderator: "Ok, then... so, on this side, we have the NCR, who wants control and dominion over the Mojave Desert area, New Vegas, and the Hoover Dam. And on this side, we have Caesar's Legion, who also wants all of those same things, and has sworn to accomplish it over the hacked-up and crucified bodies of every NCR soldier and citizen occupying said regions. How can we come to some kind of peaceful accommodation whereby both parties can have a fair piece of the 'pie', without bloodshed? NCR Ambassador first..."

NCR Ambassador: "Murdering barbarian scum!"

Moderator: "Mmm, k.... Caesar's Ambassador?"

Caesar's Ambassador: "Worthless profligates, slavery is too good for the likes of you!"

Both sides: "KILLLL THEM!!!! AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Footnote to history five hundred years later: "Many lives were lost that day, including the Moderator's when he took the ill-advised course of looking out from under the meeting table just as a pneumatic powerfist happened to be transiting the same space as his head. The cause of international diplomacy and restraint was unfortunately set back many centuries, and it wasn't until the year 2516 that the nascent Re-United Nations was finally chartered once again, for this purpose."

What about the Boomers?
They could be major players.

I thought about the Boomers BUT without The Courier to be that unique catalyst brave enough to march through the artillery barrage, I'm not entirely sure they'd have ever foraged out on their own. If there's enough support for a Boomers faction though and a viable individual for Ambassador then what the hell, they'll be thrown into the mix.

I don't think the Powder Gangers have a strong enough "social" presence or reliability to be their own faction and would have to be assumed into one of the other ones. Since the game lets you merge them with the Great Khans that seemed like a decent enough starting point AND would bolster the numbers and add varied expertise to allow them to become a more vocal "creature" and enter the debates.

Is the point of this to try to find away where all parties will end up being happy? If so I just can't see that happening.

That is merely the idea behind the initial debate. Where it goes from there is entirely up to the debaters. One brief moment of "Yeah sure, we'll try it, what the hell" gets the factions to send forth their ambassadors. YOU guys decide your platforms and where you'll go with them. You can stick to manifest destiny and that you deserve every inch of everything ever because you say so, others can try to persuade you otherwise, or just commit back to open warfare.

There is no way to make everyone happy unless some folks have a natural Charisma 10 and Speech 100 and can persuade die-hard veteran fans that you could both win, that'd be swell to see happen, sure. I don't think it will, but it'd be interesting to see. We're all human after all. Opinion can be changed.

[Edit]: For further clarity, you're empowered to make decisions that might not be the direct Will of the President / Caesar / Papa / Whatever, though it'd be assumed that die-hard fans wouldn't completely twist their faction completely around. This could either go on long as people request and make reasonable concessions, or three posts in the Mojave Campaign could be back in action.

That's why I don't think it's a game. It's not really something people can "win", more of a social / political experiment. Have you ever wondered how things would be in your own country if someone other than the current leadership could speak up? That's about where this is at.

[More Edit]: Or think of it this way. Everyone seems to say they could do better than Kimball, Caesar, House, McNamara, The King (actually no one thinks they can do better than the King if I remember.), etc. Here's the opportunity to pretend you can, with real opponents rather than self-theory.

[One Last Edit]: The only difference between this and New Vegas is that in this particular reality, there is no Heroic / Villainous Courier to tip the scales of things, everyone committed is committed under their own factional power and resources, a few balance tweaks / implied alliances added so that people aren't forced to defend causes that have no hopes of being anything other than an obstacle. (Ex. House already has his Platinum Chip, The Great Khans and Powder Gang merge, the various settlements of New Vegas who say they fight for independence are actually together fighting for independence rather than just lamenting about not having the strength to do so.)

NCR makes a deal with Mr.House.

Mr.House is given control over The Strip, Westside and Freeside. This becomes a small state within the NCR "The State of Vegas." NCR gets taxes from all business does in the State. Mr.House's influence spreads and factories are opened throughout the NCR. Employment sky rockets.

NCR no longer has to waste resources trying to annex The Stip.. Downside is Mr.House will make Brahman Barrons look liek spoiled children with the money he can through at NCR politicians at all levels of government.

A deal of non-aggression is attempted with the Legion. It fails.. The Legion would not agree to staying on their side of the Colorado.

NCR and House pool what they have and deal with the Fiends and other raider groups.

The Enclave are gone so I don't think they play any part in it.

Not sure how NCR would deal with the Khans.. I can see them trying to get them to leave peacefully or send them to reservations.

Sounds like a good starting platform to run with.

You've got what your faction wants, who you're willing to deal with and how, and what your basic terms are. You also have highlighted where other people will benefit from it and assumptions of how others will react.

Sounds like a strong start to me. But for the record, the experiment isn't actually starting yet because not all of the debaters are, well, ready. Or in some cases even aware that they'd already be debating.

Big Iron on His Hip: NCR

It's impossible for all sides to reach a comprimise. The Enclave is a ghost, the NCR and House could plausibly make a deal, the odd man out is Caesar. He, like the BoS, has an uncomprimising attitude of 'My way or the highway!' attitude. Plus he views the NCR as an ideal system that is impractical, and the Legion is the ideal that could and would topple NCR and by the synthesis to the problem. Overall, I'd say NCR and House could very likely make a deal, but Caesar would never agree to diplomacy, this has been proven by Lanius who states that their roads are littered with the many crucified corpses of those who saught diplomacy with the Legion. Caesar is an 'All or Nothing' person.

House is possible because, in my opinion, House controlling and securing the New Vegas region, and playing Water and Power company with NCR, thus lessening the burden on NCRs military and economic circles, plus if you have 100 science or barter, you can entice Oliver with advanced tech or by dealing with the Caravan Families, if you choose the latter, Oliver more or less says 'Pfft, fine, you can keep the dam, you're in for heck dealing with those annoying Families' Trust me, anyone willing to just drop it all after seven years just because you are willing to deal with the Caravan Families speaks volumes about the kind of deal you'd be getting.

I agree with this, eventually Vegas will be seen as the most virtuous state of the NCR and could cause a small uprising of citizens wanting the rest of the corrupted country to as virtuous.

Viva La Revolution! :turtle:

That's a bit ridiculous don't you think? That's like the state of New York attempting to cleanse the rest of the continental United States. Also, New Vegas and virtuous should never be said in the same sentence.

HA HA HA THIS!!!!!