Which makes any pre-War concerns irrelevant.


I suggest you read an actual history book or even a Wikipedia article when it comes to the history of Christianity. In the beginning it was a radical sect of Judaism with an apocalyptic, messianic bent. Unlike the Unity, where the Master lives and is continuously available for explaining its precepts (not to mention the lack of supernatural elements and focus on the development of the self), Christianity developed out of the teachings of a dead Jewish rabbi, in multiple and often contradictory directions. There was no single, unified movement with a single binding doctrine, but multiple independent centers of development.

Again, I have to emphasize that the Unity is fundamentally different. There is no way for alternate interpretations of the Master's doctrine to develop, because he still lives. Even if he died, due to the absence of supernatural elements and focus on self improvement, his ideas would survive better. How would it be distorted? How would it be interpreted differently, when the Master not only laid down the principles of the Unity, but also goals and lines along which it should be developed?

Conflict is motivated by scarcity, as you point out, but you repeat the term Cornucopia ad nauseam without explaining what you mean. Yes, resources are limited. So what? Humans wage petty wars over resources due to inherently unsustainable methods of living. In fact, this un-sustainability, reliance on finite resources such as crude oil and uranium, is what led to the Great War in the first place. As super mutants are inculcated with new values, sustainable living is likely one of them.

Furthermore, as super mutants supplant regular human populations (which were dramatically reduced by the Great War, thus increasing the relative availability of resources), they will have a similar ecological and economic footprint. I fail to see how super mutants would be more liable to experiencing food shortages than regular humans.


There is always going to be some stratification. However, super mutants are much more egalitarian than regular humans. Might can't make right when everyone you live with is as strong and durable as you are.


Uh, no. The Christians were initially a very small Jewish sect controlled by charismatic leaders. It was an immature religion with constantly developing tenets and dogma and was not a homogenous whole. As I said, it was a Jewish sect, one of many. It is in no way comparable to a mature rationalist doctrine/philosophy established by a still living genius, with established guidelines for interpreting his words.

You're constantly trying to draw a parallel where there isn't any to be seen. Christianity is the creation of multiple people of varying levels of competence, derived from teachings passed down from the first dead teacher. Unity is the creation of a single man, a complete, mature philosophical system taught to all super mutants.

Furthermore, you're constantly mischaracterizing major characters. The Lieutenant isn't a sadist and certainly not on the level of the more infamous rulers in history. The Lieutenant doesn't torture people for the sake of torturing them, but with an objective. Note that he is very specific about what he wants from the Vault Dweller and only tortures them as far as it is necessary to coax the location of Vault 13 out of them. He also gets weary of the process and orders the dweller prepared for dipping, something uncharacteristic of an actual sadism.

Furthermore, why isn't he fitting for the Master's utopia? He sees the Master in a light colored by his near-religious reverence for him and considers the uplifting into a super mutant the most important event in his life (as do other intelligent mutants). No super mutant has any motivation to subvert the teachings.


Let's see, intelligent supermutants... Lieutenant, Kyle, Vincent, Vicious, Flip, Krupper, the dying supermtuants, praying supermutants, sargeant guarding the nuke, every single nightkin and super mutant in the Cathedral and the Master's Vault... There are plenty of intelligent super mutants, not just the two examples you cite. Furthermore, you ignored the fact that Kyle explicitly states that even with its flaws, the Unity is still the best chance for humanity.

Again, why would disagreement with some elements of the philosophy lead to a coup d'etat or civil war? Given the internal


Ridiculous. The Unity has already succeeded. Super mutants are a new man, adapted to the realities of the wasteland and devoid of the petty hatred and jealousies that consume regular humans. They use a mature philosophical system specifically created to usher in the next generation of man. They aren't an off shot of a pre-existing faith, they are a completely new quality.

Furthermore, why would they starve?


Why is the Master an ignorant lunatic or fanatic? He singlehandedly created a new species of man, out of an abandoned pre-War research project. He crafted a new society and a new philosophical system to guide it. What's more, it was built on solid foundations, as the super mutants are better than humans.


The super mutants are supposed to be the successors of humanity. Being able to procreate is a pretty big part of that, as the super mutants are forming a new society, not a militarized cult.


What examples? The only insane super mutants are nightkin and that's due to the overuse of Stealth Boys, rather than the demise of the Master. Even the remnants of the super mutant army prowling through the desolate Central Valley in California aren't technically insane, but suffering from shell shock and the after effects of the Unity being brought down with extreme prejudice by the VD and the super mutants driven away by regular human factions.

Other regular super mutants migrated or otherwise merged with society. Marcus and the entire Broken Hills super mutant population are perfectly sane and function well. Gond is a super mutant serving with the NCR Rangers even. Same goes for Jacobstown mutants, which are decent and straightforward folk. If you consider Tactics a part of the story, it's even more obvious, as the super mutants that fled East are characterized as inherently good people and hammered into one of the most powerful armies in the wastes by Latham.

In general, humans cause more problems for super mutants than vice versa. Hell, I'd . http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Mean_Sonofabich was tortured and tormented by humans, but harbors no ill will towards the species and helps Westside. Hell, some NCR politicians even http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Morales_(Senator).

Repost of my reply:

Its not clear that the master is immortal either. And that is where the unity falls apart: what if the master dies?

Look at how all the SMs behave without the master. FO2 and FONV are packed full examples of nightkin and SMs being clearly insane. If anything happens to the master the whole operation falls apart. If the Unity had been successful the moment the master died the whole world would have turned into black mtn or jacob's town- aka a total and complete cluster [censored] of insanity or a place tittering on the edge of it.

Most surviving super-mutants still suffer the loss of the master, decades after his death, it is a fact.

But what most super-mutants really need is not the master himself, but a strong leadership.

They managed to handle themselves when ruled by Attis, Gammorin, Latham, or Lou (if you kill the Master first), and still be a military force to be reckoned with. Not only they remained military efficient, but were able to maintain some scientific researchs.

In Broken Hills, things weren't always smoothy, but most Super-mutants, ghouls and normies managed to live together, make the whole city work and have a social life, under the wise leadership of Marcus & Jacob. I don't recall any super-mutants complaining of their way of life. Their only issues were with racist normies.

Also you can find, from time to time, some super-mutant living in normies community, like those in Fo2 NCR. Their leader is not a super-mutant, but the president of the NCR. A leader that changes every few years, but a leader anyway... (considering that Tandi remained president 50 years, you can call that a strong leadership)

The problem is that many of these strong leaders died by the time of Fallout New Vegas. Amongs those leaders that survived, there is a good proportion of Nighkins. Those nightkins, for the most part, gradually became schyzophrenian. They were still viewed as leaders, but have lost their clarity of judgement, allowed their other personnality, or mainly their need of stealthboy to cloud their judgement and govern their decisions.

You can argue that Marcus was still clear-minded, but by the time of New Vegas, you learn that the previous events were quite a mess. Marcus tried to form a community in Black Mountain, with Nightkin and regular super-mutants, 1st generation and 2nd generation of super-mutants, but because of that gradual increase of shyzophrenia, it was near impossible to maintain control, and a group of those schyzophrenian stealth boy addicted took over, led by Tabitha (as Marcus wanted them to stop using stealth boy, what their second personality was opposed to). By the time you reach Black Mountain, you clearly understand that Tabitha has lost it. Even she needs a leader, a leader that you can bring her back when you repair Rhonda.

So Marcus has not only lost a whole lot of that community when Tabitha & Co betrayed him, but he is not in charge of the remaining Nighkin, that chose to follow Keen instead. But unlike Tabitha, Keen chose to give him his chance. Marcus, on the other hand, have to make Dr Henry provide results. Until then, he can't make any bet on the future of that community, as Keen & Co could change their mind any time, like Tabitha, and their disease would keep getting worse. With so much variables, neither Marcus or Keen represent a strong enough leadership for the Jacobstown community to devellop itself, and all the other super-mutants know it. They are in a stationary state.

If Dr Henry manage to find a cure, not only Marcus would have more legitimacy, but all the Nighkin living there will get their [censored] back together, and as long as they are enough, there is no reason Jacobson would not flourish.

Tagaziel >

If you cannot die, you must not make children. Otherwise, the planet would be overcrowded.

So if the super-mutants know that they are immortal, they would WANT to be sterile.

If they only know that they have a longer lifespan, they have plenty of time to do research.

If they think theire lifespan haven't changed, they are more screwed.

No. [About mutants, not the BoS ]

The FEV logs in the Zax mainframe mention the details of the development of the pan-immunuty virus and why. It also mentions that the formula causes increased muscle mass and intelligence in animals. It states that in 2077 they moved to the Mariposa base and renamed the virus FEV, and that testing continues on volunteer military subjects. Yes it was in its infancy and they were not making Harry & Larry(s) yet, but the very first [human] FEV subjects were volunteers. Richard Grey fell into the vats on the expedition], and dipped others later, but he did not create the vats or the first experiments in the military base.

Also:

They are not immortal; it was the findings of the supermutant autopsy by the Brotherhood that they were sterile and could be outlived. Ghouls were effectively immortal, not supermutants.