GangstaWolf: Oh, I see now. Silly me.

GansgtaWolf and Daedalus:

I just wanted to add some things to your thoughts. First, time doesn't pass when a message box pops up, making it impossible to make a timed test. Second, although having a week in between quizzes and test would be cool for swapping answers and stuff, people just wouldn't like it.

Sorry to bring up this age-old argument, but gamers just aren't interested in waiting, even the most hardcoe ones. Even I desperately search for a fast forward button during the Oblivion speeches. Though the choice is totally yours, I would suggest an approach that limits any amount of waiting in the mod. This kind of approach would probably make the mod much more popular and likeable. The sleeping in class was an excellent idea, in my opinion.

Which brings me to my next question: How long is each term?

Remember, anything I say is not meant to be harsh. I'm just submitting my opinions; not ranting.

Thanks!

Yeah the waiting/immersion debate is one I've thought about a lot. It is a bit of a dilemma. At the moment each course takes 5 weeks to complete, thats 5 lectures, one on the same day each week. The length of the lectures themselves will vary. Although 1 week between lectures does sound like a long wait I think it can be justified, both creatively and practically. Heres why:

1. Firstly this mod is mostly aimed at immersionists - and although you quite rightly point out even hardcoe players don't like to wait too long - I think immersionists are more inclined to accept a mod which requires them to wait a while. Many immersionists like to develop a routine and this mod is ideal for that.
2. I sometimes find unexpected shorter waits more irritating than expected long waits. This might sound a bit strange but I find short waits - of like a day or less - can be very flow breaking. For example your storming your way through a quest line and suddenly your required to stop and wait for the next quest - if your in 'action-mode' this can be really annoying - especially when the NPC does not specify how long to wait before recontacting him. This is especially true for immersionists as now they have to find something to occupy them for just a day. However with our mod - the flow is quite deliberately slow - its supposed to simulate a university so the emphasis isn't so much on action but on immersion (although there will be action orientated areas).
3. Also we hope to cram the mod full of enough extra material to mean the player still has new and exciting stuff to do between lectures. Also the waiting period of a week is long enough to allow the player to be sidetracked by another oblivion activity, for example a quild quest line etc, before returning for their lecture. If we made the wait between lectures only 2 or 3 days this doesn't give the player much time to get deeply involved in any other aspect of the game before they have to think about returning to the university (I'm going on the vanilla timescale here) and would also result in the whole experience being over with very quickly. I hope that all made sense?
4. Although as I said this mod is aimed at immersionists we will try to add as many aspects as possible which make the game more accessible to more casual players - for example allowing the player to skip lectures but still retain the jist of what the lecturer said via the use of a notebook - also repeatable quests and time dependant quests, for example ones which only become available at a certain point in the mod will also act to break up the wait between lectures with more action orientated activities.
5. Also the lectures may be relatively lengthy and although it would be ridiculous for us to expect the player to sit through a long, desciptive lecture every other day, having one a week isn't so bad or intensive. So after a long lecture the player might be feeling a bit fatigued with non-action immersion and can go out and indulge in some butchery, so by the time the next lecture comes around they may be more willing to sit through another lecture again, if you get what I'm saying.

I don't want to make out I'm simply dismissing your concerns - because I absolutely share them and I think we should definately limit the amount of waiting to the pure minimum without compromising what we're trying to achieve. Unnessesary waiting is an absolute pain in the [censored] - but I think the amount of waiting in our mod will actually serve it, as opposed to ruin it.

We could have simply allowed the player to sit the lectures whenever they pleased but i think this would corrupt our primary aim, which is to create immersion - by making the world seem less player-centric - it becomes more realistic - and therefore in my eyes - more enjoyable and rewarding. But then again others, might, and probably do, disagree.

Sorry if that makes me sound a bit harsh - thats not my intention.

Cheers,
Mark

Wow Mark, I really couldn't have said it better myself.

This has actually been something I've been worried about since the beginning of the mod. We'll need to determine things, such as our target audience and goals before we go further, but we must also understanding that by catering this mod specifically for a target audience, it will mean that the overall structure of the mod will crumble to dust shortly after.

As an example, there were a few people on the first thread who wanted to get rid of lectures altogether, or make them extremely short. This frightened me quite a bit, because it made me really think about what this mod would have to offer. As an immersionist, this mod sounds like a dream come true--a way to have peaceful characters develop and grow just as well as that adventuring barbarian killing anyone that strikes his fancy. Here, a sharp mind would be miles more important than a sharp sword, and that's the way I wanted it to stay...

So then I thought to myself: Well, this means that the people developing this mod will have to make a choice: will they decide to make this mod for the strict immersionists and risk losing many potential downloads, or will they make this mod with Oblivions' original ideals in mind? It was a very daunting and serious question, and one which I still don't know the answer to. Though I do say I support the former choice over the latter.

This brings me to my next point: balance, and a very important one at that. A couple of months ago I made a really long post dictating the ideas of balance in this mod, and how it is imperative that we reach an equilibrium based on the amount of work the player has to put in, and the gains s/he gets. This is that post:
[
As you can see, time of lectures/difficulty of questions on tests and overall University protocol are very important to keep in mind. After all, the player isn't just gaining +5 skill modifiers and attribute gains; we're talking about full blown, 25-50 skill/attribute increases! The player can basically max out an attribute if he does extremely well on the course, and this isn't something that should be taken lightly. I wouldn't like this University to be just another quest mod, I want the player to actually feel like they are studying at a University, making friends with students, learning new lore, etc. That was the vision of the mod I dreamed of when I sat in my room, barely able to contain myself after finding out that someone was trying to bring this idea into reality.

Besides, as Mark stated, there will hopefully be a wide assortment of miscellaneous quests that will keep the player busy for a very long time. Basically, the lower your timescale, the more you'll get to do. The player can use that week to tie up loose ends and say good-bye to their boring lecture books as they prepare for the second course. They've still an entire course left to go through, which will probably require more exploring and fun quests to compensate for the lack of studying.

But I'm still happily open to suggestions on how such a thing (if it) is possible. Sorry if this post sounded really preachy and long, but I just had to give my two cents. I'm not trying to say that decreasing the time is bad, but the final decision will most likely be based on whether this mod will cater more to immersionists than the general player or not.

Gangsta Wolf and Daedulus:

I agree with both your points. However, I'm going to throw in a little example I have. Are you familiar with the Hungry Dragon Restaurant? It was a (in my opinion) revolutionary mod that took restaurants to the next level. I created a serving/waiting system that actually took your orders, delivered your foods, and made you pay the check. There was only one catch: You needed to wait one hour for the food to cook. Now, keep in mind that this one hour is game time.

When the release came around, I got a few comments. Two out of the first three reviewers complained about the wait time. Now, I had prepared for this, and had added several NPCs, a bar, and some unique dialogue to help fill in the time. All these things could help you survive that one hour, yet they complained.

Now, your university mod has the potential to be the next big mod, even bigger than my little restaurant. It's revolutionary, original, and cool.

But, like I said, most people don't like waiting. It's just a disease that effect all modders. (Probably because most people that download and play mods don't actually mod themselves). Like Gangsta Wolf said, we need to decide which path to take on this mod. Popular or immersive?

Well, this is just my opinion, but I would 100% go popular.

1. Like I said, this mod could make the Hall of Fame. It could be next big thing since UL or Open cities. However, to do that, it has to be popular. The common gamer needs to want to play it.
2. Perhaps the most important. Take me for example: I'm a casual oblivion gamer. I like games like RTW and COD a whole lot more than Oblivion. But, I do play an hour or two every weekend or so. Now, imagine me try to immerse myself in a mod that lasts hours, maybe days. It just can't be done.
3. What would I consider reasonable? Do you remember the Main Quest? I loved it. It was deep and addiciting, yet it was beatable in a couple of days of casual gaming. So, yeah, I know you've said this a million times already, but it be a really good idea if we made a short path for casual gamers, and an optional longer one for hardcoe gamers.

My suggestions?

1. Make the terms equal to the degree. Journeyman is 3 weeks and Masters is 5. (I know this is unrealistic, but casual gamers can simply take the journeyman, and then be on their merry way).

2. Give the player the option to go off-campus in their free time. Most gamers don't want to be couped up in a small area for three weeks. Perhaps give the player the option after he or she is admitted into the school. (Perhaps make a cost for this?) Edit: Oops, they can already do that. Sorry!

3. If a player decides not to get the off-campus option, then we could take advantage of the power of field trips. I for one, love em. Put two in every week, and even the most studious of souls can get outside.

4. This one is probably the most daring. Shorten the week waiting period all the way down to one to two days. That way, casual gamers don't get bored.

Finally, I will live if you ignore my advice completely. Hell, it's your mod, it's your dream, go for it! I'm not saying that it won't be great if you go immersive. I'm just saying that I would love to see this mod stand proudly beside UL or Open Cities. So, yeah, just giving my opinion again.

Thanks,

Kroot

Edit: In short my theory is to Make a short route for casual gamers, and a long way for immersionists. Like the Main Quest, now that I think of it.

*Spoilers*

Remember the Allies for Bruma Quest, and all the other Oblivion Gates around Cyrodiil? They were completely optional, but a dedicated gamer could complete them for an extra couple hours.

*End Spoilers*

So, I want this mod to follow this kind of style, where you don't need to get immersed if you don't want to, but you can.

Oh, and I love the campus. Absolutely beautiful.

Easiest way to make a short way for casual gamers: use the wait button.

Really though; like I said before, your concerns are very real... though that last idea seems like the best one in my opinion. Giving both immersionists and casual-gamers a way to both get what they want doesn't seem like it'll take too much trouble. Perhaps we can add a Misc. item that lets the player choose, amongst other options, how they want their waiting periods between classes/exams pass. It doesn't seem like something very difficult (heck, I think I can even do it based on my small amount of scripting knowledge), just tedious. Though I'm willing to waste the time on it if it'll make people from both parties happy. What do you all think about this?

I'm sorry to hear that so many people disliked a mod due to the fact that they had to wait a single hour (which is no more than five minutes on most timescales people play). Believe me, news like that aren't very encouraging to hear, but we can't just ignore them either. Not everyone has infinite amounts of time to play this game, and we'll need to act accordingly if we want to make this mod more popular [Is this out goal?]

Though actually, it would be interesting if one of the Hungry Dragon franchises came to the Imperial University. My character will be staying abroad and would hate having to go to the Imperial City every lunch hour just to get his fill (or eat 3-week old stale bread) What do you think? Is it possible?

EDIT: Whoops, double post... I think this thing hadn't posted.

Yes! I'd be more than willing to establish a new Hungry Dragon! There's already a Hungry Dragon, Wolf, and Slaughterfish out, as well as an upcoming unamed one. Why not add yet another to this growing franchise? What do you think Daedelus?

Finally, yeah the wait button could work, but I was thinking more of a short "real time" option.

I like the misc item idea. As unrealistic as it, we might need to stretch the boundaries a little in this mod.

Finally, one more note from the modding community. I'm going to use the Hungry Dragon Restaurant for example. If we go all out immersionet, then we will probably have the same number of downloads: 522 (TES Nexus). Now, that's pretty respectable, plus, if you add the ones from the Slaughterfish, it's around 600. Plus the 330 from Planet Elder Scrolls; that's in total about 930. However, Verona House, a Hall of Famer has 8366 on one site alone. Nearly eight times as much. So, yes, going immersion would have some major download drawbacks.

Thanks,

Kroot

Isn't Verona House older than the Hungry Creature franchise, so that must be taken into consideration as well. And besides, VH is a wonderful mod worthy of its place in the hall of fame.

Adding a Misc. item isn't immersion-breaking if we set the default to the original ideas for time. :frog: Besides, this mod will use Misc. items quite frequently as markers to record information. I don't consider that too bad. But first we need to hear from the head honcho himself, so let's see what he thinks.

There will always be the type that don't want to wait, and the immersionist type who want to wait like in real life. Me, I am a mixture of both...depends on the situation.

Gangsta: Hm...point taken. Nevertheless, it is still ten times more popular than the Dragon. But, yeah, let's wait until Daedelus come back.

Richard: Yes, but the ones that don't like to wait are usually the majority.

Hey I saw this thread a few minutes ago and just had to create an account so i could write this.http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/style_images/bgsdark/folder_post_icons/icon6.gif
great mod, the pics look beautiful and if you need some help (even though i have the modding abilities of a stoned hamster >.<)
like reseachers or someone to help write up on the subjects if they haven't all been taken =P

but good luck with the mod

~Fiach

Nope, there are plenty of subjects left for the taking. If you're interested, just send me a PM and I'll give you the breakdown of what you'll need to know if you want to help out.

It's great to hear that you actually made an account just to say what you wanted to say.

This looks like a really good idea

Sorry, I don't even have the CS (I think :huh:), so just encouragement from me

Just thought I'd post some encouragement and say Happy Birthday! (If the sixth is your birthday!) anyway Keep going with this project!

Yep, my birthday was indeed yesterday. Thanks for wishing me a good one.

I've really not much else to say to everyone at the moment, other that I'm slowly gaining some serious prowess with the Construction Set and that I've begun researching for a new subject I plan to write.

Gangsta,

It looks like I've run into a bit of a problem. One week of a course schedule, well, that's easy to script. However, two or three is giving me problems.

So I was thinking it over last night, and the only way to do it was if you did something like this.

Begin Gamemodeif GetGameDay == 1 && week == 0(activate whatever stuff you need for the day)endifif GetGameDay == 2 && week == 0(activate stuff)endif

To switch weeks, you would simply need to change the variable "week" to 1. Then put GetGameDay back to 1. Etc.

However, when do we increment the "week" variable? I can't do it at the end of the lecture, cuz that means that as soon as the professor is done speaking, the stuff for the next week activates. Which doesn't make any sense.

Does that make any sense? Because this could really ruin the mod.

Thanks

Uh, Kroot. I kind of have an idea on what we can do, but first I'll need you to clarify some things for me... Everyone else can join in on the discussion too if they please.

First off, I'd like to know exactly, based on the scripting you've done or thought of so far, how a regular University day will work. What I mean is what it is exactly you want the player to do when it's time for class. Knowing this will help me better understand why there's a problem in your code.

Now, here's where we need to discuss some things. More specifically, dealing with courses and lectures and all that. The first one is double-majoring.

While double-majoring in real life is popular to some extent, (heck, I'm even doing it!) would it be viable to include it into this mod? This is a very important question, and I've not discussed any of this with Mark yet because I didn't know we would be working on the actual scripting of the mod until the entire landmass (or at least the University and the Keep) were finished. So tell me, do you think we should allow students enrolling here to double-major, or should they only be allowed to stick to one major and be done with it?

Next, there's dropping. People just love to drop course in real life, but from a game point of view, would something like this be acceptable? Dropping would obviously need to have consequences, and from an immersionist point of view, they need to be quite harsh (such as the inability to take a course again until next year) because when you think about it, dropping a course means you will no longer go to school, but school is still going on. So it would be odd to drop a course in the middle of the year, come back a week later, and start from the beginning over again, even though it's already mid-semester.

Now comes graduation... So, it is safe to assume that some players won't even take their Master's course, whether for roleplay or other reasons. This means that a graduation ceremony should be done for the players who only take their Bachelor courses. However, once the graduation is finished, should the student be allowed to take a journeyman's course in another subject, or should they only be allowed to take their specific master's course?

Next, is failing. If a student fails a course, should they be allowed to take it again, or should they be kicked out of the University? The answer here is very delicate, as students who fail and get kicked out will become discouraged and quite angry with the mod (even though it'll probably be their own fault ) and remove it from their load order. On the other hand, allowing the student to retake the same course would look odd from an immersion point of view, as the professor would forget the student's name again, and he would send the student on quests they've probably already done. I guess we do have a simple solution to this: don't let the player do any of the professor's quests if he's failed the class once so that the maximum grade they could ever get is a 90%. This seems fair to me, and is the easiest solution to code from the way I see it.

The way we get answers to these questions will determine the amount of extra work we'll have to do making this all fit in. I've still countless other questions to ask, but I'll let you guys mull over all of these to see what you all think. In fact, I'll add a poll so you can all give me better opinions.

EDIT: The poll has been added and I've voted.

Ok, let me try to answer all those questions.

Scripting: Ok, so at a set hour of every day, the player must be in his or her seat. This is pretty easy to script, though we'll need to think of a penalty if the player is not in his or her seat at that time.

Double Majoring: We're going to have to make some cuts from real life, since this is a game. A script like that would kill me. (Literally). It would be uber long and uber complicated.

Dropping: Another regrettable cut. This would be very, very hard to do, and if combined with teh double majoring, would create a script that would destroy my computer. Jk, but it'd be really,really, really long.

Graduation: yeah, they should be able to start on a new journeyman course. It leaves the player with some kind of choice.

Failing: Don't even bother. If they fail, they take it again. Everything. It's the price of failure, and it's humiliating.

Edit: Forget my scripting problem, I figured the whole thing out.

I voted and am really impressed how this is coming along.

could peneltys be made into either a difficult gathering mission like get 4 glass cuirass's or something?,

hmm maybe they would have to pay twice as much as the last time in order to get in...

that's my 2 cents xD

I just wonder why the University would be looking for glass cuirasses in the first place.

The poll has just begun and people are already voting for the difficult options. >_< Ah well, they shouldn't be that difficult to do as long as we're careful. I've got some other questions to ask you guys but I'll post those later.

What about quests? Should failing a course allow the student to re-do any of the instructor quests, or should they be automatically disabled? I prefer it that way, as it would make more sense from an immersion point of view (since the instructor usually doesn't know your name when you're doing the first quest, and it would be weird to drop the class after helping your instructor four times and then retaking the class without them knowing your name or what you helped them with). This way, failing ads another penalty: the inability to receive a grade no greater than a 90% (since helping your instructor out counts as 10% of your grade). What do you all think?

well thats why a glass cuirass OR something... at least i think i did...... bah cant be bothered to check xD

but you know that's your job right?... to come up with the genius, unshakabley head smackingly awesome ideas thats gonna make this mod suchc a big success!.... so... you know... no preassure..... *cough*

Gangsta,

Usually, my job on a modding team is to be the realist. I put things into perspective and make sure they're reasonable. So I'd be cautious about basing your decisions entirely off the poll.

1. Keep in mind that a good number of members on this site have very little modding experience. (I don't mean to offend anyone out there, just stating a fact). Some of them don't even have the TES CS. (Again, no offense intended). Therefore, they really don't know what the CS is capable of, and might agree with an idea that is, in modding terms, completely unrealistic.

2. Oblivion is a game. A game is not 100% perfect. People can't do anything and everything, so I wouldn't stress to much about details that would cause massive scripts. Because massive scripts means a bigger chance for really bad glitches.

Let's take into example the double majoring idea. Sure, it looks easy to someone on the surface. But if you try to write a script, it would be hell. In addition to writing a script for the first class, you'd also have to write a second script for the second class, as well as a third and possibly fourth script to tie the first two together. Now that's hard. (And those scripts would be loooooonnnng)

Quests: Like I said above, I think it would be a good idea if they took it all over again. It just makes it that more humiliating to complete all the same quests again. It's an incentive to do well.

Hey guys,
Sorry I haven't posted in a while, some personal issues have taken priority. Anyway just to address somethings brought up.



I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Ofcourse I want as many people as possible to download it but I don't want to compromise my original vision in order to generate more downloads. I didn't set out on this venture with the intention of making the next must have mod and becoming a minor celebrity on these forums, instead I originally set out just to make a minor mod which might, if I was lucky, generate a small hardcoe cult fan following. And although I cherish and listen to community feedback we still have to keep in sight our original target audience, and for me at least, and I don't want to speak for GangstaWolf, but I think he agrees, our target are the immersionists. I think I see it like this - I'd rather give a lot of enjoyment to a small number of people than mediocre enjoyment to a large number.

Now onto the waiting period between lectures.

I have always thought a week was perfectly reasonable time period to wait. I wanted the university experience to feel realistic and not like a quest line you could complete in one day - this was supposed to be a long term investment which resulted in potentially large rewards and I think a week fit this goal fine. However, your concerns are very real and perfectly understandable and I would like to make this mod as accomodating for casual players as possible but without ever encroaching on the enjoyment of the main audience for this mod, which is the immersionists.

However, I think we can reach a compromise, how about this:

On joining the university, the player gets the choice of taking a full-time long course, or a part-time course. They are described below:

Full-time Course: Basically the original idea we had. 5 lectures spread over 5 weeks ending in an exam. This would be a more expensive course but would result in a much larger reward. This would appeal to immersionists as it is not player centric and requires them to maintain a schedule.

Part-time course: The player can enrole in the universities evening education programme. Essentially this allows the player to pick whenever they want to hear a lecture. They simply go to the lecture room at the correct time of day and sit at a table and listen to the lecture, they can potentially complete the whole course in 5 days as opposed to 5 weeks, however a disadvantage of this method is a substantially reduced reward and the requirement to pay much more to take the master's course.

What do you think?


I would have been quite happy to have double majoring as it happens in real life and also saves the player time as they can take 2 courses at once - however I'm no scripter so if Kroot things this is going to be extremely difficult to achieve we may have to put the idea on the backburner, at least until we have the first release ready.



Good question - this is one of those mods that if you're not going to use it, you may as well not bother having it anymore so permanently banning them from the university does seem a bit harsh and impractical. Here's what I think. If the player fails the course or is unhappy with their results we allow them to resit the exam (perhaps we can have a back-up exam written for this purpose) for a set fee, however they are only allowed to resit the exam 2 more times and the score from the last exam sat is the one which counts towards your reward. So it's a bit of a gamble, do you stick with the result you got or gamble and try and get a better result. I think this is quite lenient - after all if they've played the long route they have spent 5 weeks studying and they should be given a few chances to benefit as much as possible. If they get kicked out of university for cheating or commiting a crime etc then thats a different question - making them resit the whole course seems a bit harsh and some players might just not bother, especially if they got to about the 4th week so I think it's fair for them to rejoin the course at the point them got kicked out but they lose some of the marks they gained and they cannot reach the highest reward possible. Rejoining the univerity may be dependant on either waiting for a set period of time, paying a fefty fine or performing a specific task. Professor quests (except those at the master level) are completely optional. If you want to get the best grade possible, then you'll want to do them - but it is still possible to get a good result through simply turning up at the lectures and doing well in the exam. Therefore quests will not be able to be retaken (although there may be some repeatable quests such as gathering a certain number of objects etc). Again this is my ideal vision and is dependant on the limitations of scripting etc.

Anyway thats what I've got to say on the issues.

Cheers
Mark

Kroot, why would double-majoring be so difficult to implement? If we use a quest for each major (and global scripts dealing with the major in that specific quest) then all we'd have to do is add an option for double-majoring and use 'startquest' to start the other major. Anyway, I've more to say on this subject, so hold that thought for a some minutes.