There are some facts about FO NV. There is a good percentage of users (I am one) that simply can not finish the game as intended due to game save corruption caused by bad code.

The other fact is Bethesda obviously knows that saves can be corrupted totally breaking the game.

Now this would be like if an automaker put out a car that after driving it for 50 miles the engine seizes up making it un-driveable for a substantial percentage, or a TV that lasts for 50 hours then the screen burns out. They would not be allowed to sell such a product after the defect was discovered. The product would be recalled.

So why are these still on store shelves for other unsuspecting victims to get burned by? Shouldn't all disks be pulled and sent back and replaced with a working version? Or at the minimum a warning sticker put on all boxes stating that the game has a known defect and the game may not be completeable without a required on-line broadband connection to patch. Anything else seems kind of dodgy to me.

Before you say because it can be patched, that is not available to everyone (actually to no one as of today). Not everyone has a broadband connection or even internet access. Plus the product you buy should work and not require the user to perform an extra step to fix the defect themselves. That would be like the automaker with the engine defect sending you the replacement part to put in yourself to fix their error.

Why the difference?

A game doesn't kill you when it crashes

Because they like money and don't want to lose it.

There should be an online patch fixing alot of these issues coming very soon.

You can't fix your car with an online patch.

Recalls usually happen due to safety issues, and products are recalled so that a company can limit its liability (i.e. a company can avoid getting the pants sued off them) and avoid as much negative publicity as possible.

And, more often than not, the final step of a recall is to make good on the promise of a product by replacing it with a product that isn't faulty.

It doesn't make sense for Bethesda/Obsidian/Anybody to recall a piece of media, in this case a disc, so they re-duplicate it, re-print packaging, repackage, and reship to retail outlets or consumers directly when they can just patch it.

And, for the final kicker, read the section in your manual entitled "Exclusion of Consequential, Incidental, and Certain Other Damages."

To paraphrase, it says they're not liable for the fact that your situation svcks.

It svcks that you can't play your game. It svcks that I can't play my game.

But they won't, nor do they have a reason, to recall it. They're not even obligated to patch it--they already have your money. But they know that the welfare of the studio depends on it, so they will patch it.

As for the people that don't have broadband and don't otherwise have access to the patch...well, bummer. Maybe they'll speak with their money on the next go-round.

I agree completely. This is the ONLY industry that can do this and get away with it. And I believe the main reason is because we keep buying even with the issues. If all of a sudden they werent selling any because of the issue that would attract more attention. But they are still selling.

I'm assuming you've never been part of a vehicle recall? They generally don't take the vehicle and give you your money back. They provide a free repair to make the vehicle run again (if that's possible). If the design flaw is so bad that there's no way to fix it, only then do they give you a refund. This is actually the exact same thing. They're going to provide you a free repair to make the game usable again. That's all they're required to do, the "free repair" is scheduled to come out some time next week.

As for your point about not everyone has internet... well, if not everyone has access to the dealership anymore... they have to figure out a way to get the repair. Ford doesn't send a squad of people to come get your car for you, you have to get it to the dealership.

That does'nt exactly make sense.
We don't keep buying because of the issues.
We bought first and then discovered the issues.
As for the game not selling, many places in the UK have slashed the price of this game down to half price or less, that would indicate to me that they are'nt selling.
Hopefully, thats down to the bad publicity that this game has aroused.

You misunderstood. I meant the industry as a whole, not just this game. If we keep buying games like this, that come from a company with a history of bugs, glitches, etc. Then they will just keep pushing out the games regardless if they are done or not, knowing that all they have to do is patch it( in otherwords finish it), without any worries.

The sad fact of the matter (ok, maybe not fact as it's my opinion) is that FNV is a better game than most of the cookie cutter stuff the industry makes, bugs and all. Granted FNV and FO3 are very similar, so you could argue FNV is cookie cutter too, but Bethesda puts out games with tons of content, which is an Achilles' Heel. The amount of detail and for lack of a better term, "moving parts" in these games makes them more likely to have bugs and glitches than your typical FPS. So it's no surprise that not everything was captured in beta. I'm not giving them a free ride for releasing a buggy game, but they'll probably get my money every time over Madden 2025 or COD32. It does svck that some fairly obvious things aren't working right, but hopefully the devs will revamp their QA procedures or delay games that aren't functioning correctly.

As for no recalls on games, it's been fairly well explained that software is fixable via patch and having been a computer gamer for over 25 years, I can tell you this isn't the only game to have bugs. Just about every PC game I've ever played since the 90s has had patches to address errata, glitches, not fully implemented content, and bonus dev content. This new age of consoles relies on patches and updates to keep things working well unlike the days of the Atari 2600 where if it wasn't on the cartridge, you were SOL. I'm just glad that these things are being fixed and if you're unhappy with the company/product stop buying them. Unfortunately, there's enough of us [censored] that appreciate these games and are patient enough that Bethesda and Obsidian are probably safe.

Shh.. do not speak out about the game or Bethesda/Obsidian.. big brother is watching

Isn't that the point of speaking out about the situation? So that Bethesda/Obsidian can see the concerns?

Games have been recalled; it's really just up to the Developer and Publisher with how they want to treat their customer and how much expense they're willing to eat. Case in point: Bungie (before the Microsoft buyout), released a game "Myth II: Soulblighter" that had a bug in the game installer, if you installed the game in a non-standard directory the game un-installer could delete everything else in that directory. This wasn't found until after CDs had been pressed and boxes sent to stores. Bungie employees actually went to the manufacturer to open and replace the discs in all the game boxes, but there were a whole lot of copies "in the wild" (my own included). Bungie mailed me a replacement CD and asked that I destroy the original disc.

In my book, they earned a whole lot of Karma from that- it completely ruined their profits, but they went out of their way to make sure the game I bought worked (and wouldn't delete any data). I think it's part of the reason they garner so much goodwill among gamers; there's some real customer-first DNA at work there that I wish Bethesda would emulate.

Also, an installer that destroys data is something they could be sued over. A buggy game is not. I'd bet that made a difference as well.

That doesn't really make sense, as there are some very critical comments on this forum that have not been deleted.

The software industry in general gets away with things no other industry would. Take a look at Windows licence agreements - I think you'll find that MS accept no responsibility if an install screws up your data. I'm not saying I agree with this, but it does seem to be generally accepted.

Software in actual products, like washing machines etc, is a lot simpler than most computer software and games. Still, even that can sometimes screw up. As can updates for consumer items (e.g. a Pioneer Blu-ray player software update for UK players a while ago inadvertently switched the region code to America, which meant it wouldn't play UK discs!).

If your game's broken, then in the UK at least you would have a case for returning it to the dealer as being unfit for purpose.

I apologise.
But the thing is that these games are hyped and advertised so everyone rushes out and gets them on release date. Is there anyone on this forum who could honestly say that they could have waited until the second-third week in December to buy this game just in case that it was bugged, especially since it was released mid October.

@Tystreme
Oh and btw, the Mods are deleting posts without explaination.
2 posts on this thread (mine included) were deleted earlier today almost immediately after posting.
Apparently they don't like you mentioning your Consumer rights.

Mods maintain access to deleted posts, I believe. PM one and ask for an explanation.

I'm not really interested in what the mods do and i certainly would'nt even attempt to engage in any dialogue with them.
They are the least of my concerns.

Q: Unlike other consumer items, howcome broken games aren't recalled?

A: Greed and laziness

Recalls only occur when the company stands to lose more money by leaving the defective product out there than it would cost to recall it.

Recalls aren't for your safety or for loyalty to consumers they're companies covering their asses.

FO:NV won't kill you, it'll just drive nuts with bugginess.

But they may stop selling the product until the defect is fixed. Then all new versions that are sold should be the revised version. Just suspend sales of more bugged games and recall the ones in stores. They should offer a refund as well. I doubt most will do that they will just wait for a fix but still the option is there.

What do you want to bet that Bethesda continues to sell this broken game and won't even revise new disks being produced with patched code? Even FO3 GOTY addition still shipped with the same game breaking freezing bugs.

It should be recalled because most people that buy this game will just start playing unaware that 50 hours into their game all of their progress will be nuked. By then any patches are too late, the game is gone and you will have to start all over from the beginning. So even with internet access the problem is unacceptable. This isn't just a case of the game locking up once in a while but then after a reset you can continue. It is broken to the point of being unuseable.

A TV whose screen burns out after 50 hours due to a design flaw won't kill you either, but I bet you it would be recalled after the defect was found and they wouldn't sell more until the bad sets were fixed.

I dunno, PDP displays (plasmas) had horrific lifespans and image retention issues when they first came out and I don't remember any big recalls. People kept shelling out thousands because celebrities had these 3-10k hour lifespan wall-sores on MTV Cribs....gotta keep up with the Jones'es. The flipside is now that PDPs are "fixed" with a general estimated 100k hour lifespan, pixel orbiters, whitewashing features, and more, people are still too scared of the past to buy the new ones...thus the lower prices than the over-rated LEDs and so on and so forth.

Hopefully this will happen a bit to Obsidian/Bethesda. Maybe they'll fix their product but suffer some bad business years as a result of this debacle. Everyone can benefit from eating some humble pie at some point

Well now you're using the word "most" again. I don't know anyone personally who had 50 hours of game progress nuked, and between myself and my girlfriend we've been in every vault (more than once) done as many quests as we could (a couple of those were broken like Raul's quest but that's hardly game ending)... so, let's not use the word "most". "some" is more appropriate.

Anyway, that may be true but then again, you're talking about a $20,000 automobile that could be a death trap due to faulty brakes or something. Not a $60 video game that can be continued to be sold as is, as the patch should be available for "most" (not living in rural areas of the US, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I would say the majority of Americans have internet access in their home, something they could hook their Xbox up to a router for 5 - 15 minutes to get a patch, even if it's really poor DSL... dialup people might be a bit screwed). Maybe they shouldn't have to, and maybe Bethesda will figure out a way to provide a patch by some other means, but then it goes back to my anology, in order to get your car repaired, you generally have to take it back to the dealership as part of a recall, and if you don't have the means to do that, well... good luck.

Yeah but where does it say on the box 'must have internet access'?
Or more importantly 'must have internet access to fix the game should you ever want to play it properly'?

This is purely hypothetical.
If i had no access to XBL then this game would seem to be the perfect choice. Pick up the box, single player-check,8MB save game-check,HDTV etc-no problems there...game-content download (in red)...hmm, don't really need that then.
I'll take it. Pays ￡40 get's it home and its bust. Now what do i do?
Because i've been sold an item i cannot use, i have to drag my Xbox to somewhere i can patch it (assuming i actually know when the patch is coming out..no internet connection, see).
But thats my fault because i have no internet right?
And its not just USA, there are plenty of places in the UK still without Internet.

Which gets me back to another point-Software companies are releasing games unfinished because the internet access that some people have is allowing them to finish them after sales.
They don't need deadlines, just get the game 90% finished,release it and start counting the cash.
Meanwhile us svckers can rant on the forums while they take their sweet time finishing the game and adding inevitable bug fixes.