[Victor Oropeza]

An unofficial Enclave discussion is just asking for "BoS supporters" to come in, start a flame war, which of course leads to the topic being closed and warns being handed out to all involved. Its sad to know that fellow Fallout 3 fans could possibly find a need to start a flame war (and fan clubs) over two in game factions.

Im trying to make sure it doesn't turn into a flame war, and so far have been successful, as we're accepting both pro and anti comments, and it's working perfectly fine!

Agreed. As the first anti-Enclaver to post in this forum, I appeal to all those who come after me to me respectful, and to explain why yo feel the way you do about the Enclave, pro, anti, or neutral. Let's have a civilized discussion, not a flame war.

I think it's pretty obvious who Im with, just by looking at my sig.

For a very long time, I was against the Enclave, with similar thoughts as most here. Chriso can tell you that I wanted absolutely nothing to do with the Enclave, and I even made a thread long ago about why anyone would want to support the Enclave to begin with. Pistolero did most of the talking there, and I realized something.. No other faction has made progress anyway. These guys are getting [censored] done, and to me, that's enough of a reason. Eden and Autumn both look like bad guys, and they know it. That's why Autumn doesn't give two [censored] about icing Janice Kaplinski, and

Spoiler

Eden self-destructs

. The thing is, they're both taking the first, the hardest steps that must be taken in starting society again. It's survival of the fittest. We think that it's a bad thing now, but look at our forefathers, the cavemen. Only the ones with sharp instincts survived, that was natures way of cleansing the rest and allowing evolution.

Since it is now thousands of years in the future, we are all mentally aware of what is going on, and this is horrifying us, what we don't realize is; this is the way things are meant to be. Enclave is taking the role of nature, to allow revolution. Do we hate nature? Not particularly, no. Im sure the cavemen hated it, they thought "why should my cousin die, just because he wasn't fast enough to outrun that tiger?" this translates directly into "why should my cousin die because he was impure?"

That's just my way of thinking, the ends justify the means. If nothing else, the Enclave is the best bet, looking at East and West BoS.

[Vickey Martinez]

No other faction has made progress anyway.

Perhaps on the East Coast. But on the West Coast this is far from the truth. In 2161 Shady Sands was a small community of hard working people troubled by raiders and radscorpions. By 2242 it had grown into NCR, the capital of the New California Republic which is slowly but steadily expanding in all directions and in the east has already reached Vegas. We'll have to play Fallout: New Vegas too see what they are like these days (by which I mean the year 2281) but I have little doubt that I'll like them better than the Enclave.

These guys are getting [censored] done, and to me, that's enough of a reason.

The only [censored] I've ever seen them getting done was killing people, abducting people, and taking over scientific projects they had nothing to do with and claiming them as their own.

Eden and Autumn both look like bad guys, and they know it. That's why Autumn doesn't give two [censored] about icing Janice Kaplinski, and

Spoiler

Eden self-destructs

. The thing is, they're both taking the first, the hardest steps that must be taken in starting society again.

No, they are not taking steps that must be taken in starting society again. In order to restore civilization you have to build, not just destroy. For example if they started a new city where people could make a decent living through honest work and they would act as the guardians of the city, eliminating raiders and other threats. Then from out that city they could expand their influence to any nearby settlements and so on. That would be rebuilding civilization.

It's survival of the fittest. We think that it's a bad thing now, but look at our forefathers, the cavemen. Only the ones with sharp instincts survived, that was natures way of cleansing the rest and allowing evolution.

Since it is now thousands of years in the future, we are all mentally aware of what is going on, and this is horrifying us, what we don't realize is; this is the way things are meant to be. Enclave is taking the role of nature, to allow revolution. Do we hate nature? Not particularly, no. Im sure the cavemen hated it, they thought "why should my cousin die, just because he wasn't fast enough to outrun that tiger?" this translates directly into "why should my cousin die because he was impure?"

The cleansing that the enclave was trying to achieve has nothing to do with survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest is already going on just fine by itself. Only people who are tough enough to withstand the ill effects of radiation and the dangers of the wasteland survive. The Enclave is instead going for survival of genetically pure humans, regardless of how well suited these humans are for survival in the wasteland. And there is no evidence that genetically pure humans are better at re-establishing civilization than the genetically impure. On the contrary, the people of Shady Sands would most likely all qualify as genetically impure and yet they transformed their little village into a prosperous city.

That's just my way of thinking, the ends justify the means.

I agree with this general philosophy (though I prefer to phrase it as "the greater good justifies a lesser evil"), but in this particular case there are two problems:
1. I am not entirely convinced that the good of speeding up the restoration of civilization is truly greater than the evil of killing more than 90% of the population.
2. Even if the good is greater than the evil, I don't think the Enclave are the right people for the job. We have yet to see them build anything that isn't a military installation.

If nothing else, the Enclave is the best bet, looking at East and West BoS.

I agree that the BoS is not going to restore civilization (they are just hoarding the technology of the past), but that doesn't automatically make Enclave the best bet. I'd have much higher hopes for NCR.

[Kirsty Wood]

[quote name='Dragatus' date='20 September 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1284988773' post='16407174']
Perhaps on the East Coast. But on the West Coast this is far from the truth. In 2161 Shady Sands was a small community of hard working people troubled by raiders and radscorpions. By 2242 it had grown into NCR, the capital of the New California Republic which is slowly but steadily expanding in all directions and in the east has already reached Vegas. We'll have to play Fallout: New Vegas too see what they are like these days (by which I mean the year 2281) but I have little doubt that I'll like them better than the Enclave. [/quote]

That is true, yet the NCR isn't exactly perfect, is it? If I recall correctly, there has always been friction between two of the states: Hub and Shady Sands, I believe. Who knows when the tension could rise and spark a major conflict, effectively destroying their faction from the inside.
I suppose you could say the Enclave was in a similar predicament, but it wouldn't be nearly as catastrophic for them as it would be for the NCR.

And you want to know what's worse? They allow ghouls and super mutants into their ranks! Neither of these creatures are in any way human. The Great War was a giant, smelly crap, and they're the foul stench created that still tarries to this day.
It would be a pleasure to go into more information as to why ghouls have to purged, but that is not the topic of discussion.

As far as I know, the New Vegas campaign has been a disaster so far; the NCR troops have been dropping like flies and their camps have been either destroyed or conquered by weirdos wearing skirts and weilding machetes. And not to mention their morale is low and their gold deposits have been obliterated, leaving them to use low-value dollars. Really, the only thing going for them is the firm foothold they have on Hoover Dam.


[quote]The only [censored] I've ever seen them getting done was killing people, abducting people, and taking over scientific projects they had nothing to do with and claiming them as their own. [/quote]
Killing people? Perhaps, but you have to understand as to why. The country is still scarred by the horrors caused by the Great War -- radiation, mutation and general illness to name a few. They have infected the nation, and you can't let an infection spread. It must be cured. Aside from the tingling little pains of everyday life, pre-war America was beautiful; happy families, children playing in the yard, and bacon & eggs. Yet, that is all in the past, and it always will be until someone takes action. If someone has the means to do so (hint, hint, the Enclave, hint, hint), well, heh heh, the possibilities are endless.

The NCR is huge, sure, but they lack the resources the Enclave has to rebuild a better world.

And just so you know, the Enclave isn't roaming the wastes like a hungry deathclaw, seeking human flesh for its evening meal. No, they're simply establishing outposts where they're carrying out research on the area and experiments. In fact, they're away from settlements, allowing the towns of the wasteland to continue with their lives until they are ready and their interference is needed. It's not like they've walked into Megaton and said ''Hey, we're the Enclave, now either do as we say or die.'' That'd be stupid.

It's not like people haven't been informed of the Enclave's presence. Colonel Autumn himself warned the wastelanders not to interfere with Enclave operations, as they have work to do. Easy enough, right? If they can't follow a simple order like that, then really, I do not see how they'd survive anyway.
Also, the Enclave personel are actually offering free pure water to any wastelander who takes part in genetic screening. I've seen one of these camps, and there wasn't a truckload of bodies piled up patiently waiting for cremation. Nope, just three corpses, two of them being ghouls. The human would have been suffering from a terrible illness or was carrying deadly amounts of radiation -- apart from that being excruciatingly painful for him, I imagine it'd be very dangerous to have a human parasite walking around.
I can only assume all other participants passed, and were free to live their lives as normal, however meaningless they might me.

As for abduction, I can't think of many cases except for Anna Holt and Nathan. For, Anna it didn't turn out to be so bad, and I don't think Nathan can be taken too seriously -- most likely a little joke Bethesda added in for kicks.

The 'invasion' of Project Purity as some call it is an act that is difficult to explain, and for those uncaring toward the greater good, hard to understand. Though, people need to know the Enclave did this to provide something huge: Hope.
Where there is no vision, no hope, the people perish. Along with Eden's heart-warming speeches, the Enclave's acquistion of Project Purity would result in the people of the Capital Wasteland flocking to the Enclave for support. Imagine a country where the government is loved and looked up to. What do you see? I see bliss.
Four scientists could not possibly handle a project of such a huge scale, and we see first hand how the Brotherhood handles the purifier. The Enclave, however, have the manpower, the minds and the resources to cope with it all, and it's unlikely they'd encounter trouble delivering bottles of water.

If the Enclave were to have primary control over purifier, they'd have more opportunities to help the country, too. People would notice things getting better and better, resulting with them being more motivated to aid in the rebuilding process.
And you're making it out as if James and his team would be thrown back out into the wastes with nothing left. Of course not. They would still have a major role and would be assisted by Enclave scientists, even if help isn't really needed.

I suppose it could be argued that Eden was wrong to claim the Enclave had been working on Project Purity for years, but again, it provides hope, which is key to the nation's rebirth.



[quote]No, they are not taking steps that must be taken in starting society again. In order to restore civilization you have to build, not just destroy. For example if they started a new city where people could make a decent living through honest work and they would act as the guardians of the city, eliminating raiders and other threats. Then from out that city they could expand their influence to any nearby settlements and so on. That would be rebuilding civilization. [/quote]

I know you said you're yet to speak with Autumn at the end of the game, but Richardson's and Eden's plan does not fully reflect who the Enclave is. I, personally, do not see eye to eye with those two, and although extreme circumstances often call for extreme measures, I feel a cleansing on that scale is too much. Aside from it being similar to genocide, I think the main problem is that it's all too risky, and I wish to see America be revived sooner rather than later.

'Destroy', as you put it is a harsh way of looking at it, I feel. Eden doesn't intend to break America to rid it of mutated beings, whether they be human, super mutant or ghoul, he just wants to have the country as it was before the war. In a sense, that is possible, but I there will always be mutations lingering around... heck, a child with ginger hair despite his/her parents both being brunettes is 'mutated'. I'm willing to live with that, but in some cases, the mutation can grow into something dangerous, and that's when I draw the line.

Eden's plan isn't a bad one, per se, but there have been settlements and towns living on for a good amount of time now, and it'd be a waste not to use them.

In my opinion, rebuilding on what we have is the way to go, for reasons and could ramble all day about, but that doesn't excuse the fact that ghouls have to go. As I mentioned before, I'd explain why, but now is not the time. So yes, you could say I side with 'Autumn's Enclave', though I still prefer my own.

Oh, and realistically speaking, it's not that simple to build a city with all the things a functional civilisation needs. Rome wasn't built in a day. That would all come in due time, but first it's about cleaning up the really filthy mess (raiders, Talon Company, etc) and building on the foundations already set, i.e. Megaton and Rivet City.



[quote]The cleansing that the enclave was trying to achieve has nothing to do with survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest is already going on just fine by itself. Only people who are tough enough to withstand the ill effects of radiation and the dangers of the wasteland survive. The Enclave is instead going for survival of genetically pure humans, regardless of how well suited these humans are for survival in the wasteland. And there is no evidence that genetically pure humans are better at re-establishing civilization than the genetically impure. On the contrary, the people of Shady Sands would most likely all qualify as genetically impure and yet they transformed their little village into a prosperous city.[/quote]
In a way, I guess I 'agree' with you here. But that's because I side with Autumn. Nonetheless. the really 'unfit' would not be spared; I really think that's for the greater good. The end would justify the means here, I feel.

[quote]I agree with this general philosophy (though I prefer to phrase it as "the greater good justifies a lesser evil"), but in this particular case there are two problems:
1. I am not entirely convinced that the good of speeding up the restoration of civilization is truly greater than the evil of killing more than 90% of the population.
2. Even if the good is greater than the evil, I don't think the Enclave are the right people for the job. We have yet to see them build anything that isn't a military installation.[/quote]

@1. - Been over that.
@2. - Then who are the right people for the job? Pistolero mentioned that the BoS aren't truly taking the fight to the super mutants and it's crystal clear they're weak and prone to mutiny. Apart from the NCR who are on the other side of the country, it seems the Enclave is the only faction who has the heart to take on the challenge. It's a huge task, and it will not always wear the harness of compromise.
What else can the Enclave build at this time? And, all right, it'd be fair to say the Enclave are primarily a miliaristic organisation, but that's not to say they don't understand how a democracy works; after all, they were the shadow government before the bombs fell (meaning it's harsh to blame them for the Great War), and that also means they know the mistakes of the past, and how to stop them from taking place again.

[/quote]

[Adam Porter]

Alright, first off the bat, which 'Enclave' do you guys like more? Eden's Enclave, or Autumns Enclave? You don't have to support the Enclave to have an opinion on which one is better.

Edens Enclave - Eliminate everything that's radiated or 'impure' so America can start afresh, and rebuild itself from scratch, on a solid, un-compromised foundation.

Autumns Enclave - Eliminate selective 'impure' groups, but allow most Wastelanders to live, and unite them. Perhaps rebuild America with them, rather than get rid of them.

I personally think Eden's got it right. Extreme conditions call for extreme measures, and the Wasteland is extremely screwed up. Although it may not be because of radiation that they behave messed up, we can't take the risk. If the world is just repopulated from a small group of civilized, pure, cooperative, united people, it will surely be successful. Whereas if the chaos of the Wastes is left to run a-mock, the madness will never cease. But that's just my opinion. What's yours?

Technically I also think Eden's got it right... but only because that was the original idea. I still consider them something to be stopped.
(but then I also consider them something that was stopped.)

[Nathan Hunter]

At best, I'd say their eight year term limit was up about 192 years ago.

If a catastrophic emergency is declared the President can declare martial law and suspend
elections until resolution. Under the way it is currently written Congress would be powerless
to prevent the dictatorial usurping of power by the President.

[suzan]

Add me to supporters!


My personal opinion is that we already have water. Maybe it's not the best water but we have water nonetheless. We especially don't need to just give away clean water. We can see by the war on poverty and such liberal programs that just giving people things doesn't make anything better. It makes it worse, now the people depend on the people giving stuff away and not on hard work. It's not a "need" to get better water. But getting rid of mutants is a BIG "need". They are the cause of most deaths in the wasteland. If there were no super mutants it would be so much easier for the average Joe to just walk around and do things. The only major problem in the Wasteland would now be Raiders, and other types of robbers and killers. Which are easily taken care of with our plasma rifles and power armor. So I agree with Autumns plan. Sadly the Enclave has been plagued with horrible leaders. If we just didn't have a homicidal President I think it would help a lot. I would agree with Autumns plans even more if it was dealt out with someone that wasn't a complete killer. Just my opinion on matters. :fallout:

[luis dejesus]

Outside of Fallout 3, I like the NCR, but they don't have any goals per-se. (We won't know them until New Vegas is out.) They're just a government. Sure, they're the largest faction in America, but they're not actually taking much of a stand in the rebuilding process. The Rangers just protect people, and while that is indeed a commendable cause, it's not progress.. If the Enclave and NCR united, it would be brilliant. NCR has had tussles with BoS in the past, as Enclave has, an enemy of an enemy is a friend.

[James Rhead]

QUOTE: The 'invasion' of Project Purity as some call it is an act that is difficult to explain, and for those uncaring toward the greater good, hard to understand. Though, people need to know the Enclave did this to provide something huge: Hope.

OK, fair enough. However, the Enclave made no effort to secure the purifier through diplomatic channels. They merely charged in, took the place over, and attempted to secure James's cooperation by cold-bloodedly murdering an innocent woman. An organization that relies on violence and terror as a first resort will never have my support.



QUOTE: Where there is no vision, no hope, the people perish. Along with Eden's heart-warming speeches, the Enclave's acquistion of Project Purity would result in the people of the Capital Wasteland flocking to the Enclave for support. Imagine a country where the government is loved and looked up to. What do you see? I see bliss.

The government of Nazi Germany was loved and looked up to. Hitler was an extremely competent peacetime leader, one who restored the German people's pride in themselves and their nation, and turned a defeated and disarmed nation into a force that overwhelmed most of Europe in mere months.


QUOTE: Four scientists could not possibly handle a project of such a huge scale, and we see first hand how the Brotherhood handles the purifier. The Enclave, however, have the manpower, the minds and the resources to cope with it all, and it's unlikely they'd encounter trouble delivering bottles of water.

We also saw how the Enclave handled the Purifier: they walked in, took control of it by force, and then sealed it off with an energy shield. We are not impressed.


QUOTE: My personal opinion is that we already have water. Maybe it's not the best water but we have water nonetheless. We especially don't need to just give away clean water. We can see by the war on poverty and such liberal programs that just giving people things doesn't make anything better. It makes it worse, now the people depend on the people giving stuff away and not on hard work.

That is not a mentality that promotes civilization. If each person has to provide everything for themselves (food, clothing, weapons), then few people can get anything of worth. But if you have a farmer growing food, a tailor making clothes, a builder making houses, etc., with all of them bartering with each other; plus certain essential services paid for by taxes (police, fire, schools, and yes, WATER), civilization can be rebuilt. The problem of those who refuse to work can be easily resolved: parasites are escorted to the borders of your settlement, and invited not to return.

The Tri-States nation-state described in William Johnstone's "Out of the Ashes" adheres to this principle. There is civilization, there is government, there is infrastructure. But there is freedom and independence as well.

[cassy]

OK, fair enough. However, the Enclave made no effort to secure the purifier through diplomatic channels. They merely charged in, took the place over, and attempted to secure James's cooperation by cold-bloodedly murdering an innocent woman. An organization that relies on violence and terror as a first resort will never have my support.

The Enclave did make an effort to seize the purifier without bloodshed. If you may recall, Autumn enters, and begins speaking with James, Janice happens to be in the room aswell. Twice, Autumn asks politely for them to hand it over. But James says no. Watch that cutscene again. And ask yourself, why? Why say no? He wasn't gonna give it to BoS, Doctor Li just went to BoS out of desperation, if they hadn't given it to one of the PA factions, the purifier would have been useless anyway. Autumn had to make a point, and show he meant business, so he makes an example of a relatively useless lab assistant, so what? No ones perfect, that's his style, you can't criticize Enclave for that anyway, it's one person. Violence wasn't their first resort. Play the game again and see for yourself.

[Lovingly]

QUOTE: The Enclave did make an effort to seize the purifier without bloodshed. If you may recall, Autumn enters, and begins speaking with James, Janice happens to be in the room aswell. Twice, Autumn asks politely for them to hand it over. But James says no. Watch that cutscene again. And ask yourself, why? Why say no?

Must respectfully disagree. Need I remind you that just to get to the room to watch the cutscene, you have to fight your way past a power-armored Enclave soldier who has orders to kill you. Even if you don't have a weapon out, they still fire on you.

Had the Enclave's motives been as pure as you insist they were, they would have sent diplomats and scientists to the purifier, as opposed to a heavily armed strike team. James and his team were scientists, none were armed. And the fact that Autumn made his "request" of James with a squadron of power-armored thugs with weapons out backing his play puts his actions in the "terror" category even before he resorted to murdering the innocent.

[Kerri Lee]

QUOTE: The Enclave did make an effort to seize the purifier without bloodshed. If you may recall, Autumn enters, and begins speaking with James, Janice happens to be in the room aswell. Twice, Autumn asks politely for them to hand it over. But James says no. Watch that cutscene again. And ask yourself, why? Why say no?

Must respectfully disagree. Need I remind you that just to get to the room to watch the cutscene, you have to fight your way past a power-armored Enclave soldier who has orders to kill you. Even if you don't have a weapon out, they still fire on you.

Had the Enclave's motives been as pure as you insist they were, they would have sent diplomats and scientists to the purifier, as opposed to a heavily armed strike team. James and his team were scientists, none were armed. And the fact that Autumn made his "request" of James with a squadron of power-armored thugs with weapons out backing his play puts his actions in the "terror" category even before he resorted to murdering the innocent.

LW is one dangerous ass mofo. I wasn't surprised in the least when an order is given out to eliminate such a wild-card. Sure, they are the video-game bad guys, and they do play that role very well, even you have to admit. But I still believe their cause is just. If one were to look at the series of events as an omniscient spectator, they would perhaps see things differently. Since we see it in the point of view of one man/woman, we go with that as the only way it could possibly be seen.

[Jessica Nash]

That is true, yet the NCR isn't exactly perfect, is it? If I recall correctly, there has always been friction between two of the states: Hub and Shady Sands, I believe. Who knows when the tension could rise and spark a major conflict, effectively destroying their faction from the inside. I suppose you could say the Enclave was in a similar predicament, but it wouldn't be nearly as catastrophic for them as it would be for the NCR.

You can name that as a point against the NCR when it happens. If indeed it happens at all.

And you want to know what's worse? They allow ghouls and super mutants into their ranks! Neither of these creatures are in any way human. The Great War was a giant, smelly crap, and they're the foul stench created that still tarries to this day. It would be a pleasure to go into more information as to why ghouls have to purged, but that is not the topic of discussion.

I think you can freely explain it here. The Enclave's attitude towards mutation is an important aspect of who they are. I also feel it is important for our discussion that I know exactly what is so wrong with ghouls (other than their smell).

As far as I know, the New Vegas campaign has been a disaster so far; the NCR troops have been dropping like flies and their camps have been either destroyed or conquered by weirdos wearing skirts and weilding machetes. And not to mention their morale is low and their gold deposits have been obliterated, leaving them to use low-value dollars. Really, the only thing going for them is the firm foothold they have on Hoover Dam.

Yet despite everything NCR has done more for the rebuilding of civilization than any other faction I know off. They actually have states and industry and all without the help of the Enclave.

Killing people? Perhaps, but you have to understand as to why. The country is still scarred by the horrors caused by the Great War -- radiation, mutation and general illness to name a few. They have infected the nation, and you can't let an infection spread. It must be cured. Aside from the tingling little pains of everyday life, pre-war America was beautiful; happy families, children playing in the yard, and bacon & eggs. Yet, that is all in the past, and it always will be until someone takes action. If someone has the means to do so (hint, hint, the Enclave, hint, hint), well, heh heh, the possibilities are endless.

The NCR is huge, sure, but they lack the resources the Enclave has to rebuild a better world.

And just so you know, the Enclave isn't roaming the wastes like a hungry deathclaw, seeking human flesh for its evening meal. No, they're simply establishing outposts where they're carrying out research on the area and experiments. In fact, they're away from settlements, allowing the towns of the wasteland to continue with their lives until they are ready and their interference is needed. It's not like they've walked into Megaton and said ''Hey, we're the Enclave, now either do as we say or die.'' That'd be stupid.

It's not like people haven't been informed of the Enclave's presence. Colonel Autumn himself warned the wastelanders not to interfere with Enclave operations, as they have work to do. Easy enough, right? If they can't follow a simple order like that, then really, I do not see how they'd survive anyway.
Also, the Enclave personel are actually offering free pure water to any wastelander who takes part in genetic screening. I've seen one of these camps, and there wasn't a truckload of bodies piled up patiently waiting for cremation. Nope, just three corpses, two of them being ghouls. The human would have been suffering from a terrible illness or was carrying deadly amounts of radiation -- apart from that being excruciatingly painful for him, I imagine it'd be very dangerous to have a human parasite walking around.
I can only assume all other participants passed, and were free to live their lives as normal, however meaningless they might me.

So if I understand correctly what you wanted to say with all this is that the Enclave might kill people, but they aren't killing everybody without discrimination and when they do kill someone they have a good reason for it?

I have my doubts about the second part, but that's really besides the point. My point was not that there is something wrong with the Enclave because they kill people. My point was that there is something wrong with the Enclave because they do little else. But more on that later, when I'll comment the Project Purity situation.

As for abduction, I can't think of many cases except for Anna Holt and Nathan. For, Anna it didn't turn out to be so bad, and I don't think Nathan can be taken too seriously -- most likely a little joke Bethesda added in for kicks.

I was refering to what they did to Arroyo in Fallout 2. And yes, I know that wasn't Autumn's Enclave. I was just making a full list of what I've ever seen them do.

The 'invasion' of Project Purity as some call it is an act that is difficult to explain, and for those uncaring toward the greater good, hard to understand. Though, people need to know the Enclave did this to provide something huge: Hope.
Where there is no vision, no hope, the people perish. Along with Eden's heart-warming speeches, the Enclave's acquistion of Project Purity would result in the people of the Capital Wasteland flocking to the Enclave for support. Imagine a country where the government is loved and looked up to. What do you see? I see bliss.
Four scientists could not possibly handle a project of such a huge scale, and we see first hand how the Brotherhood handles the purifier. The Enclave, however, have the manpower, the minds and the resources to cope with it all, and it's unlikely they'd encounter trouble delivering bottles of water.

If the Enclave were to have primary control over purifier, they'd have more opportunities to help the country, too. People would notice things getting better and better, resulting with them being more motivated to aid in the rebuilding process.
And you're making it out as if James and his team would be thrown back out into the wastes with nothing left. Of course not. They would still have a major role and would be assisted by Enclave scientists, even if help isn't really needed.

I suppose it could be argued that Eden was wrong to claim the Enclave had been working on Project Purity for years, but again, it provides hope, which is key to the nation's rebirth.

Imagine you're the scientific lead of Project Purity and you just figured out how to make it work. And then this man in a military uniform comes up to you and says you're doing a great job and that if you hand over control of Project Purity to his organization they will make sure it's successfull by providing protection, efficient water distribution, and advanced technical support. And you get to keep working on the project, except now you'll have all of their fancy tech at your disposal.

Now imagine this man in a military uniform comes up, demands control of Project Purity while offering nothing in return, and when you don't immediately give it to him he shoots one of your co-workers. Would you truly think this man deserves your co-operation?

My point is that if the Enclave wants to rebuild civilization they should try to now and then use civilized methods such as diplomacy instead of bullying and shooting people. Surely if anyone in the Capital Wasteland could be treated with civility it was the science team of Project Purity.

The entire handling of the Project Purity situation shows that the Enclave is a purely military organization who is incapable of using any methods other than violence. And that is precisely what I consider to be the most wrong with the Enclave. Yes, there are times when the use of force is necessary. But anyone who constantly uses force and nothing but force can't possibly be good in my book.

I know you said you're yet to speak with Autumn at the end of the game, but Richardson's and Eden's plan does not fully reflect who the Enclave is. I, personally, do not see eye to eye with those two, and although extreme circumstances often call for extreme measures, I feel a cleansing on that scale is too much. Aside from it being similar to genocide, I think the main problem is that it's all too risky, and I wish to see America be revived sooner rather than later.

I'm glad to know you don't support such extreme genocide.

'Destroy', as you put it is a harsh way of looking at it, I feel. Eden doesn't intend to break America to rid it of mutated beings, whether they be human, super mutant or ghoul, he just wants to have the country as it was before the war. In a sense, that is possible, but I there will always be mutations lingering around... heck, a child with ginger hair despite his/her parents both being brunettes is 'mutated'. I'm willing to live with that, but in some cases, the mutation can grow into something dangerous, and that's when I draw the line.

Eden's plan isn't a bad one, per se, but there have been settlements and towns living on for a good amount of time now, and it'd be a waste not to use them.

In my opinion, rebuilding on what we have is the way to go, for reasons and could ramble all day about, but that doesn't excuse the fact that ghouls have to go. As I mentioned before, I'd explain why, but now is not the time. So yes, you could say I side with 'Autumn's Enclave', though I still prefer my own.

Oh, and realistically speaking, it's not that simple to build a city with all the things a functional civilisation needs. Rome wasn't built in a day. That would all come in due time, but first it's about cleaning up the really filthy mess (raiders, Talon Company, etc) and building on the foundations already set, i.e. Megaton and Rivet City.

I agree that it is hard to build a city and that it would be better to work on the foundations that have already been set. But I don't see the Enclave working on those foundations.

@2. - Then who are the right people for the job? Pistolero mentioned that the BoS aren't truly taking the fight to the super mutants and it's crystal clear they're weak and prone to mutiny. Apart from the NCR who are on the other side of the country, it seems the Enclave is the only faction who has the heart to take on the challenge. It's a huge task, and it will not always wear the harness of compromise.
What else can the Enclave build at this time? And, all right, it'd be fair to say the Enclave are primarily a miliaristic organisation, but that's not to say they don't understand how a democracy works; after all, they were the shadow government before the bombs fell (meaning it's harsh to blame them for the Great War), and that also means they know the mistakes of the past, and how to stop them from taking place again

To be honest I don't see anyone on the East Coast that seems capable of rebuilding civilization. Maybe Megaton or Rivet City could eventually grow into something, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.




One problem with forum debates is that over a few posts people often start to argue over details. This is especially true for longer posts and verbose replies. So in hopes to avoid that here is a short summary of why I am against any version of the Enclave and why I don't believe they are capable of rebuilding civilization:

The Enclave is a military organization who as far as I can tell has always used force and force alone to achieve it's goals. They talk about restoring America, but I don't see them doing any restoration whatsoever. They have all this advanced technology and many resources but they have never used either to help anyone in any significant way. They don't offer protection and they are neither aiding agriculture nor developing industry.

If a catastrophic emergency is declared the President can declare martial law and suspend
elections until resolution. Under the way it is currently written Congress would be powerless
to prevent the dictatorial usurping of power by the President.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's legitemate. Not that the laws of the USA even matter in the wasteland of 2277.

[MatthewJontully]

QUOTE: LW is one dangerous ass mofo. I wasn't surprised in the least when an order is given out to eliminate such a wild-card. Sure, they are the video-game bad guys, and they do play that role very well, even you have to admit. But I still believe their cause is just. If one were to look at the series of events as an omniscient spectator, they would perhaps see things differently. Since we see it in the point of view of one man/woman, we go with that as the only way it could possibly be seen.

They are the video game bad guys because of the way they behave during the game. And in the end, a person or organization must be judged not only on the ends they wish to achieve, but the means they resort to to achieve them.

[Cheryl Rice]

They are the video game bad guys because of the way they behave during the game. And in the end, a person or organization must be judged not only on the ends they wish to achieve, but the means they resort to to achieve them.

The means, seem perfectly justifiable to me, given the circumstances they've been dealt with. The nukes did a number on the world, by getting rid of 90% of the worlds population, you could say Eden wants to take down 90% of that, and start America from a small controlled set of individuals. You compare Eden with Hitler, Hitler was in a fully functioning world and he killed humans that were perfectly pure, just another race. Eden is in a destroyed world, millions have died, what's another thousand? Especially if the reward is unity and cooperation, I feel it is negligible.

P.S: You know, if it gets cumbersome to quote another person each time, if you just click 'reply' on the persons post, it does the quoting bit for you. Incase you didn't know.

[Laura Shipley]

Liars, thieves and murderers trying to restore something that cannot, and should not, be restored and abandoning everything that made that something worthwhile in the attempt.

[Jack Walker]

Liars, thieves and murderers trying to restore something that cannot, and should not, be restored and abandoning everything that made that something worthwhile in the attempt.

America shouldn't be restored?

Hmm.. now that you made me think of it.. A government does seem kinda useless, I mean, things are going great without someone trying to assume a position of power too, I guess it makes sense, but only temporarily. If a government isn't rebuilt then the whole country will have to fend for itself, where ever it's inhabitants are. Nowadays, if there's trouble in one state, other states lend a hand. That won't be the case if there's no unified ruling body. If The Pitt is in trouble, Rivet City ain't gonna send em food and water. If the Commonwealth is under attack, NCR ain't gonna send in their army to help out. It's anarchy, just bigger. If progress is to be made, we need a government system. The country needs to unite, under one. The Enclave. (Or NCR)

[Jamie Moysey]

QUOTE: Now imagine this man in a military uniform comes up, demands control of Project Purity while offering nothing in return, and when you don't immediately give it to him he shoots one of your co-workers. Would you truly think this man deserves your co-operation?

My point is that if the Enclave wants to rebuild civilization they should try to now and then use civilized methods such as diplomacy instead of bullying and shooting people. Surely if anyone in the Capital Wasteland could be treated with civility it was the science team of Project Purity.


That's pretty much my point. The fact that Autumn resorted IMMEDIATELY to threat, terror, and violence suggests that those are the only means of persuasion he bothers with. Eden, for all his horrific intent, at least understood that the only way to truly rebuild a nation is through persuasion, not mere mindless force. Remember the story of the North Wind and the Sun.

[Sarah Bishop]

Outside of Fallout 3, I like the NCR, but they don't have any goals per-se. (We won't know them until New Vegas is out.) They're just a government.

That's exactly what is so great about them. They are an actual democratically elected government responsible for their own people.

Sure, they're the largest faction in America, but they're not actually taking much of a stand in the rebuilding process.

They did a good job rebuilding California.

Perhaps you've misunderstood my point with NCR. I wasn't implying that NCR should restore the USA. What I meant is that other parts of North America should follow the example of NCR and try to do the same. And each of these city states would be responsible for restoring civilization within it's own teritory. Then they would expand into uncivilized teriotory and then they would eventually extend to each other, at which point they could start discussing confederation.

[Jessica Lloyd]

I think you can freely explain it here. The Enclave's attitude towards mutation is an important aspect of who they are. I also feel it is important for our discussion that I know exactly what is so wrong with ghouls (other than their smell).

Alright, basically, because it's a disease. Ghoulification is a disease. A degenerative one at that. All Ghouls go feral at some point, sometimes it takes longer, for ghouls like Carol. Sometimes it's instant, as in the case of the person who entered the Dunwich building, I forget his name, but you can listen to his holotapes, he's looking for his father, and seems to turn into a feral Ghoul in the process.

Anyway, once feral, they lose their senses, ability to reason, etc. Basically become wild animals. A cure is being researched, but until it is, there is no alternative than to put them down. If we were in better days, they might have been put in an institute, but these aren't better days. A bullet to the head is as comforting as it can get.

As for why I personally hate them, it's because of several mis-encounters and bad experiences with Ghouls, namely Roy Phillips. My joining of the Enclave started out with a hatred for Ghouls, so in a way, they are to attribute to my current allegiance. I don't hate all Ghouls, I like a few, Carol, Desmond, Dr.Barrows, and a couple more. But I loathe most. I even have a topic stating "Why I Hate Ghouls". But it got locked, Im sure you can guess why. You'd be able to find it in my profile though, if interested, though I must warn you it's a bit long..

[Rach B]

America shouldn't be restored?

Not the America of the Fallout universe. Stuck in the 50's with no environmentalism, no peace activists, no hippies, no social progress in a lot of areas.

The America of the Fallout universe drained all its resources and led the world in draining the entire planet.

The America of the Fallout universe couldn't function in the post war world. Something better must be created.

[Marquis T]

Alright, basically, because it's a disease. Ghoulification is a disease. A degenerative one at that. All Ghouls go feral at some point, sometimes it takes longer, for ghouls like Carol. Sometimes it's instant, as in the case of the person who entered the Dunwich building, I forget his name, but you can listen to his holotapes, he's looking for his father, and seems to turn into a feral Ghoul in the process.

What's worse, it's completely unpredictable. You never know when they'll turn feral -- needless to say this is a huge problem, and we can't live in a world where we must watch our backs every living second. It's destroys any chance of bringing peace back from the dead.

And I apologise for not replying to everyone, but there's a post near enough every minute, I've got work to do and my show's on soon.'

[Ross]

QUOTE: Now imagine this man in a military uniform comes up, demands control of Project Purity while offering nothing in return, and when you don't immediately give it to him he shoots one of your co-workers. Would you truly think this man deserves your co-operation?

My point is that if the Enclave wants to rebuild civilization they should try to now and then use civilized methods such as diplomacy instead of bullying and shooting people. Surely if anyone in the Capital Wasteland could be treated with civility it was the science team of Project Purity.


That's pretty much my point. The fact that Autumn resorted IMMEDIATELY to threat, terror, and violence suggests that those are the only means of persuasion he bothers with. Eden, for all his horrific intent, at least understood that the only way to truly rebuild a nation is through persuasion, not mere mindless force. Remember the story of the North Wind and the Sun.

Well, when the most powerful faction around, the US Government seizes something, you give it up, or pay the consequences. Autumn showed them that it was no laughing matter, and James better do as he is told. Instead he decides to just kill himself, and Autumn (and fail). For what? It could have been avoided. Did he have reason to not give it up? No. Sure, you may look at it as a bunch of armed goons coming to demand it from you. But think of it this way, had he accepted, those same armed goons would be his protection. But no, he simply didn't trust them. It's his own fault.

Not the America of the Fallout universe. Stuck in the 50's with no environmentalism, no peace activists, no hippies, no social progress in a lot of areas.

The America of the Fallout universe drained all its resources and led the world in draining the entire planet.

The America of the Fallout universe couldn't function in the post war world. Something better must be created.

That is because technology was moving at such an alarming rate, everything else was left in the dust. With a rebuilt America, the focus will be on nothing but social aspects and communities.

[Krista Belle Davis]

That is because technology was moving at such an alarming rate, everything else was left in the dust. With a rebuilt America, the focus will be on nothing but social aspects and communities.

Yeah......can't see that coming from a group that tries to force themselves on people in the first place.

[yessenia hermosillo]

Well, we're sticking to lore and canon here, this isn't real America we're talking about it's Fallout's America. But the argument is still valid. Fallout's America is the greatest country is the world.

[Gen Daley]

Not the America of the Fallout universe. Stuck in the 50's with no environmentalism, no peace activists, no hippies, no social progress in a lot of areas.

The America of the Fallout universe drained all its resources and led the world in draining the entire planet.

The America of the Fallout universe couldn't function in the post war world. Something better must be created.

Social progess is a lie sent by liberals to kill us (Judge Grady, GTA4.) They STEAL our money and give it to hobos who cut class and skip school.

And tell me mister 'I love the envirment", what is more improtant, some stupid tree that we can replant, or humans? I bet you use just as much water, just as much electricity, just as much paper, as we hard-working American folk.

War is important you hippie. War got HItler out of killing jews. War stopped slaverly in the USA. War freed millions from bondage. War saved Latin America from Spain. War stoped Japan from killing people in the pacific. War is what makes America, America, and we hard working Americans will not let commies like you take our freedom from us.

(Yes I know this is FO's timeline. That is why I used WW2 examples!)