[Nathan Barker]

Well, when the most powerful faction around, the US Government seizes something, you give it up, or pay the consequences. Autumn showed them that it was no laughing matter, and James better do as he is told. Instead he decides to just kill himself, and Autumn (and fail). For what? It could have been avoided. Did he have reason to not give it up? No. Sure, you may look at it as a bunch of armed goons coming to demand it from you. But think of it this way, had he accepted, those same armed goons would be his protection. But no, he simply didn't trust them. It's his own fault.

What James saw was a bunch of heavy duty military types demanding control of the project for god knows what sinister purpose. How was he supposed to know what the Enclave planned to do with the purifier? Autumn didn't bother to explain any good intentions he might have had with the thing. He just demanded control. He might have tried to avoid bloodshed, but he still used brute force and intimidation.

If Autumn had acctually told James that the Enclave just wants to make sure that Project Purity is successful by providing protection, tech support, and water distribution, and that James and his team would get to keep working on it (now with the benefit of the enclave's technology and resources) James might have accepted and you would have had a point.

That is because technology was moving at such an alarming rate, everything else was left in the dust. With a rebuilt America, the focus will be on nothing but social aspects and communities.

What gives you that idea?

[Rachel Eloise Getoutofmyface]

Yeah......can't see that coming from a group that tries to force themselves on people in the first place.

You think the government sanctions hippies and environmentalists? No.
The people choose to become those themselves, without the governments encouragement. I don't see many of those anyway, so it's not like Enclave is stopping them. The ones which may exist, aren't being killed by the Enclave, so they're not interfering on that front in anyway whatsoever.

Besides, what environment are they trying to protect/save? Dead trees and miles of sand and dirt? Yeah, I see the 'environmentalists' lining up already for that cause.

Social progess is a lie sent by liberals to kill us (Judge Grady, GTA4.) They STEAL our money and give it to hobos who cut class and skip school.

And tell me mister 'I love the envirment", what is more improtant, some stupid tree that we can replant, or humans? I bet you use just as much water, just as much electricity, just as much paper, as we hard-working American folk.

War is important you hippie. War got HItler out of killing jews. War stopped slaverly in the USA. War freed millions from bondage. War saved Latin America from Spain. War stoped Japan from killing people in the pacific. War is what makes America, America, and we hard working Americans will not let commies like you take our freedom from us.

(Yes I know this is FO's timeline. That is why I used WW2 examples!)

Judge Grady actually said 'technology' is a lie... not social progress. I love that guy, the divorce case was epic.

Anyway, indeed, war is a necessary evil in times like these. Although I must say, please refrain from calling others "hippie's" and "commies". Don't turn this into a flame war, be civil. It's a discussion, and game discussion more importantly, don't take things too far. This topic getting locked is the last thing I want to happen.

To the respective Anti-Enclave posters. [censored] You. Please, excuse some of our members as we tend to get emotional. Please don't take it to heart, and I should let you know that your presence and input here is as invaluable as that of a supporter.

[NAkeshIa BENNETT]

QUOTE: Social progess is a lie sent by liberals to kill us (Judge Grady, GTA4.) They STEAL our money and give it to hobos who cut class and skip school.

Or worse, illegal immigrants, which is essentially paying people to commit a crime (i.e. illegal residency in this country). Why don't we give gasoline to arsonists, Slim-Jims to car thieves, and piano wire to hitmen, while we're at it?


QUOTE: And tell me mister 'I love the envirment", what is more improtant, some stupid tree that we can replant, or humans? I bet you use just as much water, just as much electricity, just as much paper, as we hard-working American folk.

Poisoning the air and water and destroying the trees that give us oxygen are hardly actions that could be considered beneficial to humanity.


QUOTE: Well, when the most powerful faction around, the US Government seizes something, you give it up, or pay the consequences. Autumn showed them that it was no laughing matter, and James better do as he is told. Instead he decides to just kill himself, and Autumn (and fail). For what? It could have been avoided. Did he have reason to not give it up? No. Sure, you may look at it as a bunch of armed goons coming to demand it from you. But think of it this way, had he accepted, those same armed goons would be his protection. But no, he simply didn't trust them. It's his own fault.

That's classic "might makes right" thinking, essentailly stating that a person with absolute power has the right to abuse it as he sees fit, from the lunch money-stealing bully in your second grade class to the alien grand pooh-bah of an interstellar empire. That's the antithesis of the principles that America (the real one) was built on.

[Angela Woods]

What James saw was a bunch of heavy duty military types demanding control of the project for god knows what sinister purpose. How was he supposed to know what the Enclave planned to do with the purifier? Autumn didn't bother to explain any good intentions he might have had with the thing. He just demanded control. He might have tried to avoid bloodshed, but he still used brute force and intimidation.

If Autumn had acctually told James that the Enclave just wants to make sure that Project Purity is successful by providing protection, tech support, and water distribution, and that James and his team would get to keep working on it (now with the benefit of the enclave's technology and resources) James might have accepted and you would have had a point.



What gives you that idea?

Perhaps his methods weren't the best way to go about it, but he was given a job, and he tried doing it. He probably saw no reason to not go in guns blazing in the first place, so I think the fact that he even spoke is commendable.

That idea, actually was stated, and agreed upon in a topic in the Fallout Universe section, that was about the technological vs. social progress in the Fallout Universe. Maybe it isn't true, as it wasn't a developer who stated it, but since it was universally agreed upon, I assumed it to be right. Perhaps it isn't.

[Mr. Ray]

You think the government sanctions hippies and environmentalists? No.
The people choose to become those themselves, without the governments encouragement. I don't see many of those anyway, so it's not like Enclave is stopping them. The ones which may exist, aren't being killed by the Enclave, so they're not interfering on that front in anyway whatsoever.

Besides, what environment are they trying to protect/save? Dead trees and miles of sand and dirt? Yeah, I see the 'environmentalists' lining up already for that cause.

Showler was talking about the time before the bombs fell in 2077. And not just immediately before the bombs, but the entire time from where the Fallout universe splits away from our universe up until the bombs fell.

To the respective Anti-Enclave posters. [censored] You. Please, excuse some of our members as we tend to get emotional. Please don't take it to heart, and I should let you know that your presence and input here is as invaluable as that of a supporter.

If you appreciate us so much, why don't you make a list of sworn enemies of the Enclave in adddition to the list of supporters.

[Nauty]

You think the government sanctions hippies and environmentalists? No.
The people choose to become those themselves, without the governments encouragement. I don't see many of those anyway, so it's not like Enclave is stopping them. The ones which may exist, aren't being killed by the Enclave, so they're not interfering on that front in anyway whatsoever.

Besides, what environment are they trying to protect/save? Dead trees and miles of sand and dirt? Yeah, I see the 'environmentalists' lining up already for that cause.




Judge Grady actually said 'technology' is a lie... not social progress. I love that guy, the divorce case was epic.

Anyway, indeed, war is a necessary evil in times like these. Although I must say, please refrain from calling others "hippie's" and "commies". Don't turn this into a flame war, be civil. It's a discussion, and game discussion more importantly, don't take things too far. This topic getting locked is the last thing I want to happen.

To the respective Anti-Enclave posters. [censored] You. Please, excuse some of our members as we tend to get emotional. Please don't take it to heart, and I should let you know that your presence and input here is as invaluable as that of a supporter.

I am so sorry. I will refrain from flaming.

That divorce case was epic.

[john page]

If you appreciate us so much, why don't you make a list of sworn enemies of the Enclave in adddition to the list of supporters.

That's actually a great idea. What should I call them? Enclave Dissidents? Members would include, you, Oddish and Showler for starters. What do you say?

[Shannon Lockwood]

I am so sorry. I will refrain from flaming.

Don't worry about it man.

I know what its like to get caught up in the moment, trust me.
Just try not to insult anyone while getting a point across, general rule of thumb on forums.

[Kayla Oatney]

Perhaps his methods weren't the best way to go about it, but he was given a job, and he tried doing it. He probably saw no reason to not go in guns blazing in the first place, so I think the fact that he even spoke is commendable.

Their methods are exactly what's most wrong about the Enclave. At least with Autumn. With Richardson and Eden i think their genocidal goals were the larger problem.

They just use force, force, and more force. Sorry, but you can't rebuild civilization just through force alone.

That idea, actually was stated, and agreed upon in a topic in the Fallout Universe section, that was about the technological vs. social progress in the Fallout Universe. Maybe it isn't true, as it wasn't a developer who stated it, but since it was universally agreed upon, I assumed it to be right. Perhaps it isn't.

I was talking about the second part, that "With a rebuilt America, the focus will be on nothing but social aspects and communities."

[joeK]

I was talking about the second part, that "With a rebuilt America, the focus will be on nothing but social aspects and communities."

Well, yeah. It has to be. They're obviously trying to unite the people one way or the other. If that's not a social aspect, what is?
Tech. is done being built, and all they're doing for now is saluaging old tech. which is troublesome as it is, so that leaves no room for development. There's nowhere to go but social.

[Poetic Vice]

Autumn's Enclave.

Can I get my name added to the OP?

[Rach B]

Autumn's Enclave.

Can I get my name added to the OP?

Sure thing, man.

Edit: *UPDATE* OP Updated with list of dissidents. To qualify as a dissident, one must make more than one anti-Enclave comment. Not neutral, saying they have a dislike for them. Pure, anti-Enclave. Either that, or state you wish to be added to the dissidents list.

[Calum Campbell]

And I apologise for not replying to everyone, but there's a post near enough every minute, I've got work to do and my show's on soon.'

Sure, take your time. A well thought reply is worth more than a hasty one after all.

That's actually a great idea. What should I call them? Enclave Dissidents? Members would include, you, Oddish and Showler for starters. What do you say?

"Dissidents" sounds like we used to be supporters. I'd rather go with "opponents".

[Hazel Sian ogden]

Well, yeah. It has to be. They're obviously trying to unite the people one way or the other. If that's not a social aspect, what is?

Power. Control freaks need something to control.

"of the people, by the people and for the people". I'd bet Autumn and his compatriots would tell you that all the good aspects of the U.S. (the democracy, the constitution, the bill of rights, the courts, etc.) will be restored as soon as everything is settled and safe.

They will never consider things settled and safe. That would require them to give up their power.

[Matt Gammond]

"Dissidents" sounds like we used to be supporters. I'd rather go with "opponents".

How about adversaries? It sounds cooler..

[Kirsty Wood]

How about adversaries? It sounds cooler..

How about Freedom Fighters? The Resistance?

[Yvonne Gruening]

How about Freedom Fighters? The Resistance?

Yeah, calm down braveheart, don't take it over-board.

[Jani Eayon]

It's back!
Official Split Personality Equal Opportunity Ghoul Enthusiast and Enclave Supporter reporting for duty, sir!

Anytime Pistolero posts, imagine a +1 from me. I usually just sit back and watch these threads rather than get caught up in the fighting that inevitably occurs when the wrong person stumbles into the conversation.

[Bethany Watkin]

How about Freedom Fighters? The Resistance?

How about the wait for it...... Enclahaters! :jammasterjay:

[Andrew Tarango]

It's back!
Official Split Personality Equal Opportunity Ghoul Enthusiast and Enclave Supporter reporting for duty, sir!

Anytime Pistolero posts, imagine a +1 from me. I usually just sit back and watch these threads rather than get caught up in the fighting that inevitably occurs when the wrong person stumbles into the conversation.

Enclave Supporter and Ghoul Enthusiast? How does that work?

See, Bittercup and Renegade it is possible!!!

Why can't all chicks just be like ghoulsrpeople2?

[Susan]

Enclave Supporter and Ghoul Enthusiast? How does that work?

There's a lot of Ultrajet involved. I have to hide my non-feral friends in strongholds like Tenpenny Tower with safe water supplies so I can fulfill my Enclave duties.

[ZzZz]

James should have turned over project purity in the first place i mean really Autumn knew that talking wasn't going to work because James wouldn't let anyone work on the purifier unless he was the boss. Also how would James transport all the water and keep it protected from Super Mutant and Raiders (the LW has a life to ya know) the enclave could have used the vertibirds to do it. Also what happens when James and Li and all the scientists die the enclave could devote more resources and use the purifier to unite the wasteland as Autumn said at the beginning.

[Erin S]

James' wife's dream was free water freely given to anyone who wanted it. The Enclave didn't share that dream.

Besides, the long term plan was to purify the water in the river itself, not just make a giant distribution network.

[Abel Vazquez]

Now.. has anybody mentioned the west coast enclave? do we have any supporters of them in here? I neither support the enclave, or oppose them, I am simply A liason sent from far far far away...

[Lalla Vu]

QUOTE: I guess I'm just an anarchist at heart. I think the Wastelanders should just be left to take care of themselves and run their own small communities without interference from people like the Enclave.

No, you're more in line with the philosophy of the original American founding fathers. For the first 150 years of this country's existence, it was what it was intended to be: a collection of individual states seeing to their own affairs, with the power of the federal government carefully limited by the 10th Amendment. Unfortunately, since the 1930's, the 10th Amendment has been ignored, and the federal government has grown exponentially larger, more powerful, and more intrusive. And now, I'm sad to say, it forces on all of us decisions that should be made at the local or state level, and makes us pay for the enormous bureaucracies that support those laws.

The Enclave, I believe, represents the extreme of that disturbing trend: a central government that strips the citizens of their freedom under the guise of "protecting" them.

You know, now that you put it that way, it kind of makes sense. And I guess the Enclave is an example of what many feel the United States government is slowly becoming: a tyranical power where only the wealthy and privilaged have true power and uses propaganda to manipulate its people into blindly supporting their actions even when it goes against what their founders originally wanted. It's amazing how people forget that America today is nothing like it was originally intended to be.

And you know, the Enclave's propaganda isn't really that different from the propaganda The US uses now. Just a thought.