[james kite]

I am against the enclave because i think the future is in the hands of the ''wastelanders'' not
just the capital wastelanders but the wastelanders all over the states, the enclave may be right
that they will be successful, but the success is at a heavy price if you ask me, and there certainly
is no success for the ''impure'' wastelanders

[Dean Ashcroft]

I would support Autumn's enclave, but I hate him. I would kill him and take charge..!.....? I usually side with the BoS, but they dont seem to recognise what you accomplish which is annoying..

[Ricky Rayner]

Enclave Supporter and Ghoul Enthusiast? How does that work?

See, Bittercup and Renegade it is possible!!!

Why can't all chicks just be like ghoulsrpeople2?

GAH. Well don't you know what to say to a lady?? XDDD Psh, I don't need my name on a list to know I think Eden svcks *coolface* Yeah I'm such a darn rebel.

[Ray]

James should have turned over project purity in the first place i mean really Autumn knew that talking wasn't going to work because James wouldn't let anyone work on the purifier unless he was the boss. Also how would James transport all the water and keep it protected from Super Mutant and Raiders (the LW has a life to ya know) the enclave could have used the vertibirds to do it. Also what happens when James and Li and all the scientists die the enclave could devote more resources and use the purifier to unite the wasteland as Autumn said at the beginning.

Complete agreement. :thumbsup:

James' wife's dream was free water freely given to anyone who wanted it. The Enclave didn't share that dream.

Besides, the long term plan was to purify the water in the river itself, not just make a giant distribution network.

Autumns Enclave wanted to give out water too, they would have done so more efficiently than BoS anyway, considering they have Vertibirds. As for the river being purified, it's about a matter of time. It took two weeks for the basin to be purified, wouldn't have been much longer, a couple of months before the entire river is. I don't see any downside to James accepting Enclave's assistance. Autumns assistance atleast.

GAH. Well don't you know what to say to a lady?? XDDD Psh, I don't need my name on a list to know I think Eden svcks *coolface* Yeah I'm such a darn rebel.

You rebel against something that has power, if you rebel against Enclave, you've basically accepted that their in charge.

[Taylah Haines]

Sign me up as an Opponent. That notion that you need a violent, genocidal, fascistic strongarm ruler to restore order and rebuild is 100% bogus, and always has been.

Democracy and the rule of law as laid down by the governed are far from perfect, but they are every bit-- if not more- effective at building successful, peaceful, strong and resilient societies. Order is already being established in the wasteland by the communities and traders, and if the Enclave were serious about being useful, they'd be out clearing up raiders, slavers, scorpions, rogue robots, etc. Instead of wiping out Deathclaws, they're training them up as freaking weapons, FFS!

No evidence is shown in the game's writing of even a single attempt by the Enclave to rebuild even a single thing.

*whew*

Anyway, name ONE country under totalitarian rule that would be better to live in than any number of the earth's democracies.
More fun and easier for the majority of citizens, mind you, not just for the ruling elite and random psychopaths. Everyone likes to think they'd be the ruling elite, but we know most of us slackers would friggin' hate our nasty, oppressed, fear raddled lots.

...and most of us would have about as much tolerance of clowns like the Enclave threatening us in real life as we do in the game. :gun:

[Rude Gurl]

Sign me up as an Opponent. That notion that you need a violent, genocidal, fascistic strongarm ruler to restore order and rebuild is 100% bogus, and always has been.

Democracy and the rule of law as laid down by the governed are far from perfect, but they are every bit-- if not more- effective at building successful, peaceful, strong and resilient societies. Order is already being established in the wasteland by the communities and traders, and if the Enclave were serious about being useful, they'd be out clearing up raiders, slavers, scorpions, rogue robots, etc. Instead of wiping out Deathclaws, they're training them up as freaking weapons, FFS!

No evidence is shown in the game's writing of even a single attempt by the Enclave to rebuild even a single thing.

*whew*

Anyway, name ONE country under totalitarian rule that would be better to live in than any number of the earth's democracies.
More fun and easier for the majority of citizens, mind you, not just for the ruling elite and random psychopaths. Everyone likes to think they'd be the ruling elite, but we know most of us slackers would friggin' hate our nasty, oppressed, fear raddled lots.

...and most of us would have about as much tolerance of clowns like the Enclave threatening us in real life as we do in the game. :gun:

Signed up.

Democracy was created in a peaceful world. This world is far from peaceful, we need to grind through the beginning stages so we can get back to unity and peace. Enclave aren't stupid enough to just rebuild schools and libraries in a world like that, only to have it looted or whatever. You say they should be clearing out Raiders, Slavers, etc. They are. That's what the Modified FEV is designed to do. Get rid of everyone in one go. Killing them individually is just stupid, because the time it takes to kill one is the time it takes to recruit 10 more raiders.

As for countries doing better with a totalitarian system; Venezuela and Cuba. Both of them are relatively unaffected by the economic crisis, and are happy and prosperous. Cuba has the highest literacy rate on Earth, and Venezuela was in the Guinness Book of World Records as being the Happiest Country in the World. I don't want this discussion to go too much into real life though, I don't want it to turn political etc. Lets keep it in-game from now on please.

[Yonah]

Yeah, let's keep real life politics out of this.

[..xX Vin Xx..]

You say they should be clearing out Raiders, Slavers, etc. They are. That's what the Modified FEV is designed to do. Get rid of everyone in one go. Killing them individually is just stupid, because the time it takes to kill one is the time it takes to recruit 10 more raiders.

That's the worst logic ever. The Modified FEV in Fallout 2 AND Fallout 3 were never any different. They don't have some magical 'Kill bad guys only' genetic trigger. The Modified FEV is nothing but a genocide tool to bring about The Enclaves ideal 'Master Race' they arent looking to be as humanitarian as you've been duped to believe, they only want their idea of right. If you have to try and force others to believe you are right, perhaps you should stop and think about just how right you really are.

[jessica sonny]

Autumns Enclave wanted to give out water too, they would have done so more efficiently than BoS anyway, considering they have Vertibirds. As for the river being purified, it's about a matter of time. It took two weeks for the basin to be purified, wouldn't have been much longer, a couple of months before the entire river is. I don't see any downside to James accepting Enclave's assistance. Autumns assistance atleast.

Autumn's Enclave had no intention of freely giving out water. They were going to use the Purifier as a bargaining chip to force the desperate people of the Capital Wasteland into a corner where they'd have no choice but to accept the Enclave's control. James knew exactly what the Enclave was all about; that's why he decided to sacrifice himself, and hopefully kill Autumn in the process, rather than allow the Enclave to exploit the Purifier.

Men like Autumn don't become fair, just leaders. The man was a sociopath with an extremely narrow and skewed vision of the world; he did whatever he wanted and acted like a spoiled brat when he didn't get his way. The Enclave would form a dictatorship because the Enclave is and always has been about power; they've never shown any regard for the people, only for their own self interests.

Democracy was created in a peaceful world. This world is far from peaceful, we need to grind through the beginning stages so we can get back to unity and peace. Enclave aren't stupid enough to just rebuild schools and libraries in a world like that, only to have it looted or whatever. You say they should be clearing out Raiders, Slavers, etc. They are. That's what the Modified FEV is designed to do. Get rid of everyone in one go. Killing them individually is just stupid, because the time it takes to kill one is the time it takes to recruit 10 more raiders.

The NCR has been doing very well despite being a democracy in a non-peaceful world. They've been rapidly expanding their borders, and they've prospered much more than any other attempt at a post war government. What makes the NCR effective is that they're a democracy that accepts anything and anyone, and they have the police force and military to deal with any problems that might arise on the inside. Some of their actions have been dubious (such as their methods of forcing Vault City to join them), but they've actually been productive, and they largely consist of good people.

Meanwhile we have the Enclave who doesn't really try to reach out to anyone in the wasteland, not even reasonable people. They either try to kill them all, or coerce them into accepting their control. They may actually believe that they're the best hope for the world, but the fact of the matter is that they don't do a very good job at showing this. Their actions are fanatical and imply heavy brainwashing to the point where they come across as psychotic and seem to be as much of a threat to themselves as they are to everyone else around them.

[james kite]

It's disturbing how many people are willing to abandon all the ideals that America was founded on, in exchange for a promise of "safety".

Especially when that promise comes from a bunch of unrepentant liars.

[Rudy Paint fingers]

well, bottom line is that the OutCast have Americas best intrest in hand.. to paraphrase and OutCast quote

" its EASY to make more Humans, its HARD to replace a plasma rifle".

[FABIAN RUIZ]

James should have turned over project purity in the first place i mean really Autumn knew that talking wasn't going to work because James wouldn't let anyone work on the purifier unless he was the boss. Also how would James transport all the water and keep it protected from Super Mutant and Raiders (the LW has a life to ya know) the enclave could have used the vertibirds to do it. Also what happens when James and Li and all the scientists die the enclave could devote more resources and use the purifier to unite the wasteland as Autumn said at the beginning.

What James should have done is open that bloody door and let the Lone Wanderer handle Autumn and his thugs. But nooo, the idiot had to make a stupid pseudo-heroic sacrifice. <_<

Autumns Enclave wanted to give out water too, they would have done so more efficiently than BoS anyway, considering they have Vertibirds. As for the river being purified, it's about a matter of time. It took two weeks for the basin to be purified, wouldn't have been much longer, a couple of months before the entire river is. I don't see any downside to James accepting Enclave's assistance. Autumns assistance atleast.

When exactly did Autumn offer assitence?

[Thema]

When exactly did Autumn offer assitence?

Listen to his monologue at the end. He say's he wants to give out water too. I can't remember the exact words. During the confrontation with James he was probably somewhat irked, and thus I don't think he actually offered assistance, but when the US Government seizes something, you give it up, that's just common sense.

[Kellymarie Heppell]

Autumn's Enclave had no intention of freely giving out water. They were going to use the Purifier as a bargaining chip to force the desperate people of the Capital Wasteland into a corner where they'd have no choice but to accept the Enclave's control. James knew exactly what the Enclave was all about; that's why he decided to sacrifice himself, and hopefully kill Autumn in the process, rather than allow the Enclave to exploit the Purifier.

Men like Autumn don't become fair, just leaders. The man was a sociopath with an extremely narrow and skewed vision of the world; he did whatever he wanted and acted like a spoiled brat when he didn't get his way. The Enclave would form a dictatorship because the Enclave is and always has been about power; they've never shown any regard for the people, only for their own self interests.

Colonel Autumn shows no regret over actions such as shooting unarmed captives, as long as it serves the Enclave's ends. He is a firm believer in the revival of the United States as a nation and a power in the post-nuclear world and will do almost anything he has to in order to fulfill this vision.

It cannot be said any better than this quote from the wiki. He obviously knows everyone thinks he's a bad guy, but that because no one else sees the big picture, if they did, they would be with him. The BoS have Outcasts, and deserters. Do the Enclave have any deserters? Nope. Everyone in it is happy, and agrees with the courses of action, wether their coming from Eden or Autumn. He will do whatever it takes, and I admire him, it makes him a great man, and he doesn't even want credit or recognition for it, he knows he will be hated, but he is willing to do that for his country, it almost brings a tear to my eye thinking about it. They should really make a movie on his life..

Edit: The unity of the Enclave is IMO its single largest advantage. Wether Eden's Enclave or Autumns Enclave, their unity is impeccable. Even looking at the forum, we have several supporters and several opponents, however the opponents aren't united. Some may be BoS, some may be NCR (although Enclave and NCR don't actually have anything against each other, as they haven't come in each others way.. yet.) and some may just be lone wolves, the fact is, they aren't together, their hatred for the Enclave is perhaps the only thing they have in common, and it isn't nearly enough.

[Tiffany Carter]

You realize that that level of "unity", especially in the face of leaders with differing goals, is a pretty clear sign of massive brainwashing...probably from birth.

Something the BoS is probably guilty of as well.

[ijohnnny]

You realize that that level of "unity", especially in the face of leaders with differing goals, is a pretty clear sign of massive brainwashing...probably from birth.

Something the BoS is probably guilty of as well.

Then how do you explain all the Enclave supporters on these forums? We can't have been born into the Enclave, we saw all the options, and chose this as the best one. No brainwashing involved.

[Laura Wilson]

I really can't answer that. I have an answer, but it wouldn't be a good idea to post it.

Unquestioning obedience of the government is probably the least American thing ever, though.

[Paula Ramos]

I really can't answer that. I have an answer, but it wouldn't be a good idea to post it.

Unquestioning obedience of the government is probably the least American thing ever, though.

Not unquestioning, all questions were answered, and we all liked the answers. If the government knows what's right, and you agree with them, let them do their thing, and do what you can to help. It's not just about being American, it's about being a good person in general. It's selfish and short-sighted to think otherwise.

Edit: Actually, I think the brainwashed one, would be the one who saw events take place from one perspective and assume it to be the right one. Just because you play as Lone Wanderer doesn't mean you're necessarily playing the good guy..

[Sharra Llenos]

A completely unified Enclave is pretty much impossible. Especially since one leader was interested in the complete destruction of all outsiders and the other is interested in saving some of them.

Without brainwashing to ensure obedience, the difference between those two ideas has to cause conflicts.

There are two other possibilities besides brainwashing. One is that the Enclave has dissenters, but we never see them because the aren't permitted in the military or on military operations.

The other is that there are dissenters, but they are eliminated as they are found.

Either way, your assertion that the Enclave's "unity" is a strength is wrong to me.

[Roanne Bardsley]

Not unquestioning, all questions were answered, and we all liked the answers. If the government knows what's right, and you agree with them, let them do their thing, and do what you can to help. It's not just about being American, it's about being a good person in general. It's selfish and short-sighted to think otherwise.

Edit: Actually, I think the brainwashed one, would be the one who saw events take place from one perspective and assume it to be the right one. Just because you play as Lone Wanderer doesn't mean you're necessarily playing the good guy..

I am not brainwashed. I chose to belive what I belive. I agree with you all the way

I still do not agree with you on some of the more govermenty take land stuff, but ack, were Enclave, happy bretheren right?

YOu know, thats the thing, we are the Enclave, yet with two groups. We are able to coexist easily without conflict. That is what makes us, America, the best. We can exist peacefully with different opinions and ideals.

[SamanthaLove]

Listen to his monologue at the end. He say's he wants to give out water too. I can't remember the exact words. During the confrontation with James he was probably somewhat irked, and thus I don't think he actually offered assistance, but when the US Government seizes something, you give it up, that's just common sense.

More lies. When he charged in guns blazing to the Purifier the first time, he made no offers of assistance whatsoever. He walked in and demanded everything be handed over to him and his jack-booted thugs and when he didn't get instant compliance, he killed another human being to demonstrate he was serious. Their actions elsewhere in the wastes show the only real interest they had in "distributing" water: using it as bait to draw in everyone unfit to be a member of The Master Race for extermination.

Further, the US government- just like most everything else in the US- is destroyed, Autumn et al's claims of being "the government" have no more validity than would a claim by me that I am the reincarnation of Nerevar. They found some dusty relics of The Old Governement, so they're the government? By that logic the discoverer of King Tutankhamen's tomb had a rightful claim to being the ruler of Egypt.

And no, "just give it up" is not common sense- it's the surefire route to being dominated by self-interested fascists by rolling over and letting them take whatever they want. So of course "just hand it over" is what suppporters of the Enclave want. It also saves them the embarassment of the inevitable defeat they suffer (and have suffered repeatedly) when anyone stands up to them.

Even Monty Python knows better than to fall for the Enclave's nonsense: "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"

The Enclave is nothing more than an incurable social disease...it can't be cured, it continues to pop up no matter how often it's forced to fade away, but it never really does anything during its occasional outbreaks besides cause a nuisance. Sort of like herpes.

[Stu Clarke]

I am not brainwashed. I chose to belive what I belive. I agree with you all the way

I still do not agree with you on some of the more govermenty take land stuff, but ack, were Enclave, happy bretheren right?

YOu know, thats the thing, we are the Enclave, yet with two groups. We are able to coexist easily without conflict. That is what makes us, America, the best. We can exist peacefully with different opinions and ideals.

Very well said. Instant field promotion, you are now Lieutenant 1st Class. :foodndrink:

[u gone see]

More lies. When he charged in guns blazing to the Purifier the first time, he made no offers of assistance whatsoever. He walked in and demanded everything be handed over to him and his jack-booted thugs and when he didn't get instant compliance, he killed another human being to demonstrate he was serious. Their actions elsewhere in the wastes show the only real interest they had in "distributing" water: using it as bait to draw in everyone unfit to be a member of The Master Race for extermination.

Further, the US government- just like most everything else in the US- is destroyed, Autumn et al's claims of being "the government" have no more validity than would a claim by me that I am the reincarnation of Nerevar. They found some dusty relics of The Old Governement, so they're the government? By that logic the discoverer of King Tutankhamen's tomb had a rightful claim to being the ruler of Egypt.

And no, "just give it up" is not common sense- it's the surefire route to being dominated by self-interested fascists by rolling over and letting them take whatever they want. So of course "just hand it over" is what suppporters of the Enclave want. It also saves them the embarassment of the inevitable defeat they suffer (and have suffered repeatedly) when anyone stands up to them.

Even Monty Python knows better than to fall for the Enclave's nonsense: "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"

The Enclave is nothing more than an incurable social disease...it can't be cured, it continues to pop up no matter how often it's forced to fade away, but it never really does anything during its occasional outbreaks besides cause a nuisance. Sort of like herpes.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support the first paragraph, Autumn isn't trying to lure people in for their destruction, he wants their support and acknowledgment. Enclave was a shadow government back in the Pre-War days, had you read the wiki you would know how the Enclave came to power, and why their claim isn't as invalid as you think.

Indeed, I agree that there were better ways of taking it over, but like I said, did BoS do anything? Nope. They sat around until Li came clawing at the doors. Enclave took charge, be it for better or for worse. Sure, they have been defeated. (After the events of Fallout 3 the Enclave is no more, either that or they're in hiding somewhere, and restarting like they did in the beginning, perhaps in Navarro).

[Shelby Huffman]

Enclave was a shadow government back in the Pre-War days, had you read the wiki you would know how the Enclave came to power, and why their claim isn't as invalid as you think.

Their origins give no validity to their claims. Executive power in the US comes from a mandate from the people. When the Enclave abandoned the US to hide in an oil rig they abdicated any claims they had to being a government to the people.

[Damned_Queen]

Folks, what do you think about the addition of ranks in the list of supporters and opponents? Your rank will be displayed next to your name and you rank up by the quality and quantity of your Pro/Anti Enclave posts. Obviously some will have better starting ranks than others. Between me and Chriso it was an unofficial "just for fun" thing, but we can take it into this thread if you guys are up for it. What do you say?