[Vicky Keeler]

I don't plan to make a plugin for each expansion because the official patches fix some things and I'm not sure you can apply the later patches without the expansions with no problems. The later games also use the same version number whether there is an expansion installed or not, so I assume there is some difference in how it all works together. I've only ever had the GOTY versoin of MW, so maybe someone else can say more about this. I did try patching just MW once to test something, but there were some problems since it couldn't find the expansion .bsas

In any case, I'm not going to reimplement fixes that are already there, not to mention it's a lot of work for little benefit. Modulating each .esm would be very messy too. I'm sure there are still people out there without the expansions, but just about everything going on for Morrowind these days requires the latest version/expansions (most importantly, the MCP) and GOTY is cheap. Ideally, I'd like to fix the .esms themselves or merge them, but I doubt that would be easily adopted.

I might end up doing something for the official mods. There is a patch mod for them already, but it does more than it needs to in my opinion. As for why it's an .esm, it's to ensure it loads before regular mods. The unofficial patches for the other games are .esms too as far as I remember.


No, it's just a setting change in the spell's properties. Gameplay > Magic Effects > Base Cost.


Just as you stated, a plugin for quests/dialog, one for scripts, one poorly placed objects, etc. Modular meaning broken up into smaller modules. Although deciding where to break up some things is an issue due to things overlapping, like scripts for quests, for example.

[Ladymorphine]

Ok I was afraid it would be dozens of those name changes.
Please let me know if you happen to find out exactly wich cells are changed, thanks!

[Genocidal Cry]

I think I will remove this from my game. I don't want new logic or game changes. Only fixes..

How do I remove an esm from my ongoing game?

Thanks.

[Milad Hajipour]

Spirited...make sure you are not carrying any items affected by that esm by dropping them on the ground (if you are unsure, drop everything on the ground), preferably in some indoor location itself not changed by the esm....save your game and exit...uncheck it in the launcher, restart your game ignoring any warning (yes to all is a good thing here), and re-save your game. Note: If you had other esps that depended on said esm, you would need to get rid of them too as this would break them.

[Angela Woods]

I thought the fixes being discussed were for future releases, not the current one.
You'll definitely want to Sync to Load List, Update, and Repair your save file in Wrye Mash after deactivating a patch that covers so much content.
Probably a good idea to rebuild and Merged/Mashed lists esps you might have, too.

[Amanda savory]

I was just giving my best guess for why something was changed. Logic was demanded and logic was delivered. Remember, I wasn't the one that changed it. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people didn't even know this was an issue before and were happily using the patch unaware. And as I said, the particular issue with the Telvanni wasn't in the readme so even those that did read it wouldn't know unless they opened it up in the CS.

And like it or not, the same kind of logic went into the official patches. I'm not saying I agree with the changes or that it justifies them, but I think some of you don't get what a patch does. The official patches change the game content. Mephala's Skill was altered, for example, and not everyone was happy about it. If the official patches would have corrected the Hlaalu faction check, I doubt there would have been many complaints. Obviously 'fix' is subjective in many cases, but you have to consider these kinds of errors because they affect gameplay and that is what the patch is should address.

The UMP already 'changes' other game content. A certain gondolier that happens to be a master trainer in medium armor was added to the game in a location that was likely based on the official game guide. Something that important probably should have been fixed by an official patch. How many people are complaining about that? There are some measures implemented to record your character's six in a global variable when it is not needed by the game as-shipped. There might be more, but that is what comes immediately to mind.


It is for future releases, but as some current thing might need to be changed or removed, current fixes should be discussed.

And Tarius; a response please. I'm collecting opinions for a reason.

[louise tagg]

All this talk of logic changes has got me worried about what sort of content's been changed in my game by the old patches... I'm not one to ignore progress/improvement (that's why I mod). But some things I certainly prefer unchanged. Arsuru, what was the controversial change quorn made with Resist Paralysis? I think the faction changes seem fine; I think the factions are a bit too lenient in the Vanilla game anyway. Though the Telvanni alteration may have been going too far.

I'm obviously not trying to pin any of this on you, Arsuru, since it isn't your work that's in question. But if I had the patience, I'd almost like to go through and look at the exact changes made by the patch project myself.

[kirsty joanne hines]

It was changed from 0.20 to 2.00 to match other resist effects. There are good and bad points to changing it, but it really bothers people. It was often accused of changing the game's balance and being outside of the scope of the patch. There are a lot of things that are arguably decimal errors, but whatever. The official change to Mephala's Skill (Removing Fortify Short Blade, which gave you access to Fortify Skill in the Spellmaker) I assume was for balance as well, but the expansions officially nullified that anyway.

A lot of the changes that have been discussed that people don't seem to like happen to make the game more difficult as well. People often don't like it when patches – official or otherwise – make things more difficult for them. Increasing spell cost and adding those faction checks adds a slight difficulty. I'm not saying that that is the case here, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is for some.

I'm not trying to justify balance changes, I'm just trying to illustrate why some of these changes were likely made and why it was felt that they were needed. I know it isn't an official patch, but the game is obviously under-patched officially.


That's part of the reason this is gonna take me some time do anything with, even excluding time spent on other things. Though it's more about feeling like it than patience for me.

[Karen anwyn Green]

So was Mephala's skill nerfed by an official patch? I remember using that spell for Fortify Skill on the xbox before I realized that I could get the spell effect from Mournhold.

What attribute of Resist Paralysis was changed from 0.2 to 2.0? The spell cost multiplier? If all the other resists were 2.0 then I'm fine with a change like that.

I can imagine, the task sounds daunting. Probably would help immensely to be running two instances of the CS on two different monitors for maximum comparison ability.

[Robert DeLarosa]

Yes.


Yeah, the base cost.


Multiple CS instances are a given; unfortunately I only have one monitor that isn't even widescreen. I really need to build a new computer.

[Lisha Boo]

I know these might not be "bugs" , but I'll post them anyway.

* Most archers of the great houses wear a shields, which doesn't really make sense. Same case for High Fane Ordinators (they wield claymores and shouldn't have a shield).
* Loads of enchanted weapons (that share the mesh/texture/icon with vanilla weapons) have worse stats than their vanilla counterparts. I think it feels right to give them the same stats.
* The regular Bonemold shield is much more valueable than its "house" counterparts, why is that?
* There's smoke from the chimney at Gorak Manor, there's no active fire inside.
* Several houses in Pelagiad have chimneys' but no fireplaces inside.

However with the discussion above in mind I don't think people want things tha makes sense /banana.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':banana:' />

[Haley Cooper]

None of those things should be touched by the MPP, imo.
Except maybe to remove the smoke coming from Gorak Monar.

It's not about disliking things "that make sense" .... It's about disliking "fixing" things that do not need fixing.
Archers may not need shields, but there is NO reason to remove them.
I don't think you can buy the House bonemold shield, but you can buy the standard one.... Therefore the price is balanced accordingly.
Enchanted weapons were probably given weaker stats to balance them.
Caldera chimneys... Well, they look nice on the outside. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' /> And it's not a problem that is in your face. It's not like a floating rock that breaks immersion.

Unecessary changes should be avoided. And just become how 1 person wants to shape the game, not a correction of a problem.

[matt]

Trance - MR 2.1 is done, will you now make that seperate addon with such kind of tweaks? This definitely does not belong in MPP but I would love to have a mod like this as its easy to remove stuff I may not like.

I am a little confused, Arsuru will you make a new MPP in the near future or are you still watching anime? Now that you posted your finds someone else might do it in the meantime wich is maybe not so good.

[Sherry Speakman]

Too bad we cant get commentary on things from the guys who made the game so we could know what was intended versus what was accidental.

[emily grieve]

While we're at it - anyone has a copy of MW Prophecies? I recall it mentioned that higher ranking Telvanni will give us quests only after we gain an apropriate rank - though I don't have a copy of it to confirm that...

[Alex [AK]]

I need to boost my setup. I've been using a laptop for years now.

is that the game guide? I have a copy of that. Don't know about the chronicles though...

[Etta Hargrave]

Meh, I meant MW Prophecies (aka The Game Guide) - don't know where I got the Chronicles from...

[Mario Alcantar]

That is basically what I intended to make with the alternate version I've mentioned in the past: doing more intrusive things like making sense of the game world. Part of me would rather just do that instead of worrying about the patch and what should should be in it. I don't really see it as an alternate version of the patch anymore though, but something separate that incorporates what is needed of the patch. A sort of overhaul, essentially, with a foundation of the patch.


Well, I still intend to continue it, but I've always said that someone else can. It's not like I can stop it anyway and I don't consider this my project. I warned people at the beginning that it was probably going to be slow like this though, since I tend to have periods with my various interests where I'll focus all of my time in one area for an extended time rather than dividing it.

I am still currently distracted by other things, including my Japanese cartoons and comics. And I feel like reading some books and things that aren't Japanese comics too. I have way too many interests and sometimes I think I've spent too much time on this game. All this talk about the patch has made me play a little bit though. Since I've played mostly vanilla for years trying to document all can, I've never gotten around to big quest mods and such so I've been playing Wizards' Islands, finally. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' />

[Wayne W]

Alright, I am sorry for missing this question.

Anyway, on adding logic to the game I have this answer.

The patch project should not include changes to gameplay. However, I do agree with some of the logic used and because in a few cases, it may very well be justified and make plenty sense, I think changes to game play should be kept in a separate esp/esm file or files. This way people can add the project and if they really want, they can use the file or even decide to remove a change from it.

[Jordan Moreno]

>I recall it mentioned that higher ranking Telvanni will give us quests only after we gain an apropriate rank
Search from The Morrowind Prophecies Game of the Year Edition - Bethesda Official Strategy Guide by the apropriate word doesnt give any result.

[Anthony Santillan]

Thanks Spirithawke and Pluto.


Arsuru : I am not blaming you or anyone. I've played this game for 9 years without this patch in..
I thought it was about time for me to give it a try.

However. These types of things tend to happen with large patches I think.. Consider the changes made to the Unofficial VtM:B patch by the various authors.
I just think Morrowind is fine without someone making it into a new game...

I appreciate your explanation. Thank you for it .

ST

[Love iz not]

I haven't played it yet and have no knowledge of the patches, so I can't compare.


I don't think any of the available versions of the patch change it to the degree that it could be considered a new game or experience. One of the main reasons to be discussing these changes though is to see what people think should removed from or not implemented in the next version. I'd like to change as little as necessary.

[Aaron Clark]

mornsu omalor have l_n_wpn_missle_arrow 1 and l_n_wpn_missle_bow 12 in inventory.

UUMP 1.6.3b fixes drenSlaveOwners by change to player detect (GetDetected "hides_his_foot"->GetDetected "Player"), but guards always detect player. Maybe need GetDistance check?

[FABIAN RUIZ]

that's one thing i find hilarious -- the project manages to fix hundreds upon hundreds of bugs, but if there's a couple questionable fixes, the patch gets completely disregarded as superfluous game-changing nonsense that cannot be recommended.
though i do agree if playing a very heavily modded morrowind, patching it is kinda pointless if you're no longer messing around with original content.

[Chelsea Head]

Any news about UMP, Arsuru?