Well, they made/missed plenty of other definite mistakes, and that's what the UOP is for, I'm just not convinced that these items above really qualify as mistakes.

Vac

It seems pretty clearly obvious if you go through the CS and keep the names of the particular affects in mind that they should have been added.

It also seems likely to me that the tutorial dungeon should have provided you a complete set of whichever armor type you wanted. I don't really see that as an overly big problem anyway as most folks using the UOP at this point are WAY beyond that part of the game.

Compare that to the situation with the dark guardians in the sanctuary. There's nothing wrong with the guardian AI. It would take a major corner case of conditions to even have a chance for something to get in to the sanctuary, and a miracle for something to get out again that wasn't part of the activation conditions for the doors. Yet that particular change interferes greatly with reusing those creatures in other mods. To the point where one must make clones of them in order to avoid having them pulled from their assigned locations. That's what I meant by an unnecessary intrusion.

I already went through the CS, and I still don't think that it's a case of they "should" have been added any more than that they used to be used and then were removed for balance purposes (or some other design reason).

I mean, put another way, there's plenty of content in the CS from stuff that never got implemented in the game. I mean, the glass Arrow of hexing is still currently unused, the pit armour isn't used, there's a bunch of dremora armour not used, a blades shield, some "Ghost dog" gauntlets, the rusty iron gauntlets aren't accessible (seriously?), a bunch of other magic armour, a variety of handbills, the level 5 version of Cruelty's Heart, leveled versions of the Apron of Adroitness, a bunch of enchanted jewellery, several creatures (and yes, I'm ignoring the ones marked "TEST"), such as the two kinds of "dark broodling", heaven only knows how much dialog that got made and never got used, whole reams of enchantments (and I've used some of those myself when I was making the enchanted equipment for armamentarium), a rice plant, plenty of grass types, the durable silver warhammer, the nirnstone...
Do I need to go on?
Some of this stuff has obvious placement options, some of it doesn't. I'm good with your change to the dark guardians because I've never had any problems with them either way, if you think that it's intended for the player to be able to walk out the tutorial dungeon with a full set of armour then, well, no big worries either way.
But adding two sets of resistances (but strangely, not a third) to creatures which will have serious changes to the balancing of those creatures. I am just not convinced that this falls under the UOP and not something like MMM or OOO. I can see people who use the patch and not other mods getting confused about why the UOP is "fixing" something that's in no way broken.

I'll probably stop just now, I've no wish to beat on this, and as I said; I actually *like* the idea of imps having magic resistance, I just don't think it's the UOP's job to add it.

Vac

Well, once again my good intentions have turned out into a mess. I think I am the main one to blame for these changes, since it was me who sent a file with these changes to Arthmoor. I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea for the UOP to deal with things that were there, but didn't make it to the game, thinking also that I had gotten most if not all of them. But after seeing your post, Vacuity, I realize that your knowledge of what was left out of the game beats mine far and large.
I think you are right in that the UOP shouldn't include these, they aren't clearly bugs since nothing is broken because of their absence. Reminds me of the various unique weapons and clothing that were left out of the game in Fallout 3 and in its DLCs, none of which were put back by the FO3UP but instead there were quite a few mods that added them back in. Maybe these unused features of Oblivion should be put back into the game via an "Unfinished Business" mod or something similar.

There's no "blaming" here :wave: , I'm not trying to have an argument or make people feel unhappy or angry, I am just stating my opinion that some of those "fixes" are changing the game balance rather than fixing the game. Good for a game balance mod, not so good for a bug-fixing mod.

Vac

I pretty much agree, since I kinda liked that you could get most of a set of armor in the tutorial dungeon, but it was half light, half heavy.

I don't see anything wrong with adding the rest of the items, but I intend to try to make an adjustment to make them less useful than the regular stuff.

Quarn and Kivan made it clear on several occasions that UOP shouldn't change things when there were no clear evidence of what the developers intent was and err on the side of caution when there was any doubt. I for example always thought that drinking vials of human blood would satisfy a vampires thirst, but that suggestion was voted down because there was no clear evidence that it was ever intended to be used as an alternative to feeding on human victims in the game. While I disagreed with Quarn and Kivan on that point, I respected that they didn't stray from the goal they had set, to only fix what's broken and not change things to how they personally think things should have been designed.

Personally I oppose the added armors to the tutorial dungeon because of that. There's no evidence that it was ever the intent to provide full armor sets so it goes against what Q&K intended with UOP.

On the topic of the existence of AI packages that aren't used, it's a bit more muddy. Just because an unused AI package exists doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bug, it could merely be a case of the developers forgetting to delete files that was once part of the game but was removed at some point. In the case of the merchant that was missing a wandering package I agree that it's a bug, the merchant otherwise remains stationary in his shop for hours after he has closed for the day.

Regarding the added "expected" resistance to various creatures, I never "expected" the resistance but that might simply be ignorance on my part since I haven't played previous games.

While I have big respect for Arthmoor and appreciate that he has provided these additional fixes, I do think that some of them clash with UOP's original intent.

Not taking anything away from the good intentions here--I applaud all your efforts to continue the good works of the UOP!! and am grateful for them--but I have to post a few words in support of Vac's viewpoint. I may be one of the few who still routinely starts new characters (as well as maintaining the old), and every one of them goes (slowly--seriously, what's the rush?) through the Tutorial Dungeon. From an immersion/roleplaying standpoint, I don't expect or particularly want them to be fully equipped, viable adventurers when they exit ... even with a vanilla install, I want them to fear for their lives, and beyond perhaps buying a hot meal and a clean bed for the night, not have two septims to rub together (risk vs. reward). Honestly, having only one or two pieces of a set of armor invites exploration to either find, steal, or earn enough money to buy the rest, crappy though it may be. And exploration's what the game's all about. Second-guessing what Beth's devs intended is a moot point--the game is what it is--but I don't believe that their aim was to make it too easy (although most of us agree they inadvertently did, or were compelled to do, so).

So no, I don't think making static placements of armor or weapons, particularly in the tutorial, is a good thing; nor is it within the scope of a UOP. Making a 'lucky find' is the function of an overhaul's levelled list, and I think even Oscuro left some places strictly hands-off.

Please understand that I am not bashing, only stating my opinion--I love what you guys are doing to further the aim of the UOP. :bowdown: I just wish you wouldn't go there.

You guys really think that a full set of iron or leather armor in the tutorial dungeon is going to unbalance the game????

huh.

I play with the full FCOM set up with arma-everything and I'm swimining in armor every time I encounter a new foe.

We're talking one or two points of added protection at best.

The sacredness of the tutorial dungeon?

This is a very good point. If you're using the UOP, chances are you've got some other mods, and although the likes of OOO don't really touch the tutorial, TIE certainly does
Plus it's something thats always annoyed me, not getting a full set of 1 or t'other. I vote leave it all in!

Sorry, but that's a point I disagree with. The UOP is designed to be a patch, not a mod and outside of these forums it's presented as a patch, just a patch, and as a result it has had hundreds of thousands of downloads, many by people who otherwise won't install another mod (look at those download counts, seriously). The armour I don't much care about as even in the vanilla game it's easy to pick up armour in the game, but adding 50% magic resistance to imps will have a serious impact on the balance of the games of all those people who just want their game "fixed", adding the magic resistance to boars won't have as big an effect, but I think it's very strange that you're adding in these effects but not the dremora effect as it's exactly the same case as the other two, an "unused effect" with an obvious application that alters gameplay balance. My bet is that it was dropped because of balancing and my bet is also that the other two effects were dropped for balancing as well.

Meh, I wasn't intending to post again...

Vac

Couldn't say it any better . Very true .

As Smokey once said "I second that emotion"

Reason I once chainsawed the UOP for my own use, and discarded the "official" line: This could (or even would) have been me. Glad to see my opinion justified again - I mean, come on, Resist Magic abilities? If you look through the CS, it's pretty obvious that Resist Magic in early development used to work like in Morrowind, before it was changed to the mess it was released as. Giving very likely discarded abilities back to creatures is no fix, but a mod.

Oh wait...

Also doesn't belong in anything calling itself a patch, too. It's obvious (birthsigns, races, quest rewards...) that Bethesda loves greater powers, even if they're next to useless. There are mods there fixing this, but this is no bug, but a design decision. Fixing the level scaling next, are we?

Hrmpf. Hopefully there will some day a development fork and a true unofficial patch will arise, because what the UOP has become (and what path is follows) is no longer anything you can call a patch.

Well if someone else wants to take up the mantle, be my guest. I've never seen such virulent hostility over something this trivial in my life. I'll happily give edit access to whoever wants to go from here but as I said before I've no desire to become this thing's keeper.

So you release an even more problematic version than the UOP already was, and then take no responsibility for it? Great :goodjob:.

Way to twist my word, bravo. I think you know good and well that's not what I meant. And if this is how things are going to turn out it sure makes me wonder why I bothered at all.

1. Some changes were done.
2. Changes were discussed*.
3. "Awww, so much criticism! I don't want to work on this anymore! Does anyone want to overtake the project?"

* = thing with the UOP is that it's (unjustified imho) recommended to all new players, because it's (supposed to be) an - as the name suggests - unofficial patch. It's not a mod with which you can run wild and do whatever you want. If you make changes to the UOP, you should limit yourself to actual bug fixes, not gameplay changes. Otherwise it's undermining (the already shaky) foundation for which the UOP gets recommended already. It's not supposed to be a mod or "Oblivion reinvisioned".

Criticism is one thing. You brought nothing but hostility to the table.

Since it appears the vast majority of the objection was to the boar thing, that's been reversed now.

As far as the rest of your apparent campaign against the UOP, if you think you can do better, feel free. I think I had made it fairly clear several times before today even that I wasn't planning on taking over long term maintenance. Getting chewed out for trying to help has simply solidified that feeling.

This happened to me. Not only that, after it happened I was unable to enter some gates (got a "this door leads nowhere" message) and the gates I did manage to get into wouldn't close after picking up the sigil stone. I tried to fix it for days, got no reply on the forums about it, until I found a console command. When in a gate click on the gate itself and type "closecurrentobliviongate" in the console (for some it may work while outside). The gate closes and then you need to coc somewhere. It could happen again while in a gate (if you "broke" more than one), just repeat the above and all problems are gone forever. That is, unless you break the gates again and have no save to revert to like what happened to me. Note: once the gates break - they're broken for good. Even if you leave the gate without grabbing the sigil stone it's very probable you broke it. Some gates MAY work, but after closing them you will teleport not outside the gate, but waaaay up high above Bruma and be able to walk on air.

Anyway, if anyone here could try recreating this and verify my "fix" works, I guess it could potentially save a lot of people the headache. I doubt I was the only one in this situation.

Edit: If you see red water instead of blue in Tamriel the bug is coming! :ahhh:

There are a lot of hazards involved in reloading without leaving to desktop first. This is one of them. Fortunately it never bit me despite >50% of my first play through doing nothing but reloading in-game after death and relying heavily on autosave+quicksave. But I've seen firsthand on other characters the damage that can be done to the state of a lot of things if you don't fully quit before reloading. The more mods you pile on, the worse this gets of course since it's at least partly due to the way the game tries to clean up after itself. Which it doesn't do very well.

Your console solution is likely the best way to undo things if you've broken them and can't back out of the situation. It would be nice if it were fixable in some way beyond that. Would also be nice if, say, another game patch came out to correct it. But I think we'd all die of old age waiting for that one

Lot of tension on this thread.
Certainly saying one wants open dialogue with a modder then paraphrases them in a context that supports your current attack is another - that is how it gets personal.
Debate is when you debate ideas - Attacking is when you debate character.

As if any of the people on this thread has it in them to leave Vanilla Oblivion alone anyway.

So here is a suggestion:
Arthmoor - maybe consider removing what others disliked - or open a poll and put it to vote.

If removed then others (Migck? yourself?) can then begin working on an addendum mod that attempts to place the changes that they feel were ignored or left out on accident back in. That addendum mod would then have the disclaimer that it is 'of the opinion of these modders that these changes should have been there."

I for one do not mind the changes, but I mod my install.

Thanks Arthmoor for what you have done.

In case it didn't get noticed in all the mudslinging, I did back out the boar and imp resistance stuff and uploaded that already. The rest is too trivial to get into a big fight over.

And I'm quite serious in offering someone edit access to the upload on Nexus if they think they can come up with something better than what I've tried to provide. Pretty much all of it up to and including the tutorial dungeon armor sets are from things I've seen complained about but never acted on.

Yup, after years of playing now I've realized it's not a good idea to reload a save before restarting Oblivion. Silly me... :shakehead: I wasn't pitching for a fix, I'm no programmer but the little I know about it tells me fixing this would be a great and probably pointless endeavor.

Oh, forgot to mention I love the UOP. But people, constructive criticism is one thing, bashing is another. I don't care if the UOP strays a bit from it's initial goal to be frank, because it is a mod after all, a mod that is optional and a mod whose readme you need to read before even thinking about installing it. Arthmoor listened to your proposals and you didn't need to be so rude before he even got a word in.

Oh I don't know about pointless, but certainly beyond the capacity of mods to fix. Bethesda would have to fix it at the EXE level. Which they did with Fallout 3 as far as I can tell.