Ok, I see the referenced by tab. If I click on The Hist quest, then Referenced By has a bunch of dialog topics. The quest itself is only modified by the UOP. Oblvion XP has a script that references the quest - that's so it can reward the appropriate amount of XP when you complete the quest. I checked and all it does is reward 500 points for completing the quest - a pretty good reward! The dialog topics are referenced by a variety of mods, but they're the generic topics like Greeting, Hello and Goodbye.

Can you suggest something else that I might look for? How would I find if something is referencing the player? There's nothing when I look at The Hist quest specifically.

Also, when I was trying to track this down, my status is fine as I clear the Blackwood Co. hall. I checked my Fighters Guild rank as I was about to leave the basemant. It's fine. It's immediately after the fight with Maglir that I get expelled.

You'll need to find the NPC record for "Player" with the name "Bendu Olo". There's likely to be a lot of stuff with a big mod list. You'll want to find anything altering the player's faction ranks or making a sneak edit to the FG quest.

Ralsa Norvalo: all her packages work only if getstage ms23 > 10, so before that she just stand there. Sleep pack point to wrong location.
Gilen Norvalo: sleep, eat, wander packages are not executed at right times because higher packages have must-complete flag. Wander package points to cell. Sleep pack point to wrong location. And he and his wife have to share a single bed.
Grey-Throat: sleep, eat, wander packages are not executed at right times because higher packages have must-complete flag. Wander package points to cell.
Roland Jenseric: Sleep pack point to wrong location. Eat and wander packages point to cell.
Seridur: Wander package points to cell.

Ah, I found it - it's Brotherhood Renewed Just jerking your chain. Yes, I forgot about Bendu Olo (often wondered if that's an anagram for something). Anyway I found the entry in Oblivion ESM and looked at Referenced By. Mine is fairly straightforward, probably because I don't have a huge mod list. Most of the entries are for Brotherhood Renewed and UOP. I can't find anything that alters faction ranks or anything even referencing the FG quests. I have a couple of things setting ownership to the player, mainly from Kvatch Rebuilt and DLC Horse Armor. The closest thing I found is where the UOP reassigns ownership of the pipes in the Blackwood Hall basemant to the player...

Previously I did rebuild my bashed patch without the faction import and that didn't help, as we suspected. Since WB didn't find anything to import when I had that selected, that also suggests I don't have anything messing with the player factions... I'm at a loss...

Well then obviously it's going to need confirmation from other people that there's a problem. It would take a great deal of time for me to get a character up to that point of the game to check it myself. The only two chars I even took through the FG have both long since finished it, and obviously neither of them was expelled. Sort of leads me to wonder if there was a bug to even fix there, but setting Maglir with the -1 value should have been a solid guarantee of it.

Yeah, that's why I was so surprised I had problems this time too. Let's put it aside for now and see if anybody else has problems. I might also transfer these saved games to another profile and play about a bit more. Try disabling mods and whatnot. Really puzzled more than anything...

Well, if I ever get there I'll let you know, but I don't think I have a character started in the FG yet, just never cared for that quest in Oblivion...

I'm on my second play-through and just today cleared out Foresaken Mine and need to report back to Oreyn. Not sure exactly where that is in the Fighters Guild quest-line, but suspect it's fairly close the final confrontation with Blackwood. Then again I tend to jump between questlines a lot this play-through so might not reach the point in question for some weeks. In any case I'll let ya know what happens when I get there (assuming the issue hasn't been solved by then).

-Decrepit-

I might have an idea. After leaving the basemant, open the console before Maglir starts a conversation with you, click on him and type "kill". If you still get kicked out of the Fighters Guild from doing this, the cause can't be the expulsion script detecting that you've attacked or killed an FG member.

That's no fun! Killing that little fetcher was the best part of the questline.

Alright I tried it. He fell over dead and I didn't get kicked out. So what's that mean? I suspect all this tells us is that the kill can't be attributed to my character. I'd get the same results by running outside and letting the guards kill him, which is a suggested solution in the wiki. I preferred to kill him and reset my status via the console But if this helps narrow down the possible cause, I'm game!

@Decrepit: please do when you get a chance. You still have a few quests to go before you get to this point, but post your results if we haven't figured it out by then.

Could the problem be as simple as killing him is considered murder and that's why you are being expelled from the FG?

No, this is at the point in the quest when he's defected to the Blackwood Co. and is attacking the player because the PC has just destroyed the Blackwood Co. I wait until he attacks me first, but for some reason, it's still getting me expelled this time. I've done this quest tons of times in the past and have never had a problem. This problem crops up every once in a while for some people, so Arthmoor was trying to fix it by explicitly removing Maglir from the Fighters Guild just before he attacks. My game has registered the removal (I checked via the console), but it appears that something else is needed or the timing is still off because I'm being expelled anyway. We posted the code in a couple of posts previous in this thread...

Mind you, I can doublecheck my murder count - I didn't think of that...

EDIT: Nope, no murder, just expulsion

On the subject of Maglir...

Removing him from the Fighters Guild at the end of The Hist won't make a jot of difference - he's not in the Fighters Guild at that point. He is removed from the Guild when he joins the Blackwood Company at the start of "More Unfinished Business" - the relevant bit of code is in the results script for Modryn's dialogue in the "Duties" topic. Therefore, if you get a murder rap and kicked out of the Guild when you kill him, it's not because he's in the Guild.

Of course, that still leaves the question of why you can get kicked out of the Guild if you kill him, but it does mean that the 'fix' to remove him from the Guild during The Hist is completely unnecessary.

Eloise

Maybe load every mod in TES4Edit and see what references Maglir. If that doesn't work, I'd say start removing mods from your game until a solution is found.

I agree completely and this is basically what I was trying to suggest previously. I don't have anything else that touches Maglir or the quest. I have a pretty small and simple LO (posted previously).

I think even Arthmoor doesn't think his fix is required, but he put it in anyway to try to cover everything off. The thing we can't figure out is why the PC still gets expelled sometimes, as you said. The other issue is that it doesn't seem to happen to everybody, so if we can get people to do this quest and let us know the results, we can decide if we need to do anything or just ignore it as an occasional hiccup.

I've tried this without 3.3 (I went back to 3.2.10, which didn't have the Maglir fix) and I got the same results. So we don't think Arthmoor's fix is hurting anything...

I think what needs to be confirmed is, who else gets it? And then compare each others mods.

Looking into how Oblivion handles expulsion, there could be a few possible problems:
Fighter's Guild expulsion is handled by the quest "Expelled from the Fighter's Guild" (FG00Explusion). This quest runs from the beginning of the game, and the only thing that references it is a script that's not used in game (FGD08Potion). The script on the quest is FGExpulsionScript:

and the relevant lines are

if ( GetPCFactionMurder FightersGuild == 1 ) && ( player.GetFactionRank FightersGuild < 9 )	if ( GetPCExpelled FightersGuild == 0 )		set booted to ( booted + 1 )		set killer to ( killer + 1 )		SetPCExpelled FightersGuild 1	endifendif

It uses a function http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/GetPCFactionMurder, meaning there's some hard-coded, non-scripted stuff going on. And that I'm going to have to guess how this works - I think every time you kill an NPC, the game checks its faction, whether you're in the faction, and if both are true sets a Murder flag for that guild. (When the Expulsion script runs half a second later it actually handles removing you from the guild.) I'd further guess that something funky is going on when it tests Marlig's factions, and somehow still registers him as Fighter's Guild. There's no way to tell what's really going on there, though, unless someone watches the internals of Oblivion while killing Marlig (which is way above what most everyone here can do).

Try checking in Tes4Edit if the Expulsion quest or script are edited.

Next time you fight him, try

GetFactionRank 2228fGetInFaction 2228fSameFactionAsPC;kill him, or use "Kill 14" - 14 is necessary so the kill is from the playerGetPCFactionMurder 2228f

Ok, followed your suggestions.

Nothing I have alters the expulsion script - it's the original from Oblivion.esm.

To clarify for others, 2228f is the Fighters Guild faction.

Checking Maglir before the fight:
Faction Rank 2228f = -1
In Faction 2228f = 0
Same faction as PC = 1 (not sure what faction we have in common)
PC Faction Murder 2228f = None

After the fight with Maglir:
PC Faction Murder 2228f = PC Murdered a Faction Member

I am no longer in the Fighters Guild faction after killing Maglir.

I don't know what faction I would have in common with Maglir at this point. I should have been expelled from the Blackwood Company at this point. I am a member of the Knights of the White Stallion, so I don't know if that makes me part of the Leyawiin faction - that's all I can think of.

EDIT: I'll doublecheck my Blackwood Company faction status and post the results...

EDIT 2: Doublechecked and I'm not in Blackwood Company at this point. I'm not in the Leyawiin faction either, so I have no idea which faction Maglir and I are supposed to have in common.

I wonder if FormIDFinder returns factions... let me check...
No, it doesn't seem to and it doesn't look like there's an easy way from the console. Are you comfortable with the CS? An easy quest script would give you the list of factions.

Well if it doesn't, Refscope does, but the challenge there is finding some way to do the same on the player so we can figure out what factions the player is in.

Also, Shadowborn is right, the result script from first speaking to Oreyn about finding Maglir does this:

MaglirREF.AddItem BlackwoodCuirass 1MaglirREF.AddItem BlackwoodShield 1MaglirREF.RemoveItem IronCuirass 1MaglirREF.SetFactionRank FightersGuild -1MaglirREF.SetFactionRank BlackwoodCompanyFaction 1set FGD04Defector.topicVAR to 1

No further changes to Maglir's factions are made again until stage 40 of the Hist quest and both of them are entirely unnecessary. Though neither should actually hurt anything.

:laugh: Well, if Refscope doesn't give player factions, FormID Finder does. So between the two that's all the necessary info.

Is this Maglir thing only 3.3 related? Because I completed that quest in my last game with either 3.2.10 or 11 (I'm 75% that it was 3.2.11).

I didn't have any problems, and I was in may factions at the time (TG, DB, MG, FG, KotN, Knights of the White Stallion, Nine Divines, The Blades and The Order of the Virtuous Blood.. I was not a member of Arena, Knights of the Thorn or Order of the Dragon).

Don't know if this helps, since it could be a hidden faction.

This is what we're trying to figure out. The problem is that it does seem to be intermittent. I think at this point most of us are curious as to why it does seem to crop up every once in a while.

I'm pretty comfortable with scripting. I've also got Refscope and FormID Finder, so I'll see if I can get a list of factions my PC is in as well as Maglir.

I've just found another bug in my game and it's NOT related to the UOP. After Miscarcand (MQ12), Martin is supposed to don his Emperor's armour, get rid of the little dagger he had and equip his enchanted longsword. He does everything ok, except he doesn't ditch the dagger for the sword. He still has the pathetic dagger. Now once again I've check TES4Edit and I nothing that touches this quest, including the UOP.

I don't run Streamline or any of the purge utilities like Kuertee clean-up or anything like that. I do run OSR with heap replacement. Could this be the source of my problems? Between the Fighters Guild issues we've been discussing and now this latest one, there just seems to be something quirky with my game and I'm wondering if anybody has heard of anything like this. I'm running Windows 7.

It's all very odd...

Did you use Maglir as a follower on any quests not related to the specific FG quest where he follow you.. maybe some script set a hidden faction on some quests (for whatever reason)

Because I did not do that.

EDIT (to your last post):
I used OSR with heap replacement, and is also on win7