[Logan Greenwood]

Running your games through Steam is fine, it is your choice to do so, but Steamworks takes the choice from us who don't wish to.

And what if people like the Steamworks features? If a game uses Steamworks and you don't like those features, you can disable them.... you cannot do vice-versa.

So much for "choice".

[Luis Longoria]

And what if people like the Steamworks features? If a game uses Steamworks and you don't like those features, you can disable them.... you cannot do vice-versa.

So much for "choice".

Well it is possible to launch non-Steam games through Steam, so you have access to the chat function and browser overlay.

[Samantha Pattison]

Well it is possible to launch non-Steam games through Steam, so you have access to the chat function and browser overlay.

Achievements and multiplayer have to be programmed into the game. So yeah, you can only add the basics.

[Steve Smith]

I believe the complaint is about having optional features that do nothing to enhance the gaming experience. If you like them, great! But if someone has to disable every single option to play the game their way, what's the point of even having the Steam client?

If the game will be released as a Steam title, then the game is intended to be played with the Steam features (Achievements, etc). This has nothing to do with how people want to play the game.

It's like playing Farmville and saying "yeah... I don't like the whole Facebook thing in this game, could you please remove that stuff? kthxbai" It's a ridiculous argument because the game was intended to be played as a Facebook game.

You see what I mean?

Well it is possible to launch non-Steam games through Steam, so you have access to the chat function and browser overlay.

and the screenshots feature

[CRuzIta LUVz grlz]

so you're complaining about optional features that do nothing but enhance your gaming experience?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I just like being able to focus on one task at a time.

You seem to think that there will be popups and ads cluttering up your screen and demanding your attention every second you are logged on to Steam. Well I'm here to tell you that you're worrying over nothing. All of those features I mentioned are completely optional. You can even completely disabled Steam in-game if you want.

I'm not saying that your opinion of Steam should be completely ignored, I'm just asking... is Steam really that bad?

For me? Yes, bad enough I don't want to subject myself to the installation (& the required patching) that took days before I can even play the game, again. The only time I felt like imitating--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGHEhKo5Ils was before I could even play the one Steam game I have.

for me convenience is getting the game disc (doesn't matter if from brick & mortar walmart or Amazon.com) install & play in an hour & being able to pick, choose & download the patches while I play & install them at my discretion.

[Tracey Duncan]

It's totally within the developers rights to force people to use a certain version of a patch. Maybe that's one of the reasons so many companies have been opting for Steam lately.

If I release a game I would always make sure that the latest patch was installed for ALL users, I wouldn't even make it optional to patch. I would want people to enjoy the game as I intended them to enjoy it.

[Undisclosed Desires]

For me? Yes, bad enough I don't want to subject myself to the installation (& the required patching) that took days before I can even play the game, again. The only time I felt like imitating--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGHEhKo5Ils was before I could even play the one Steam game I have.

for me convenience is getting the game disc (doesn't matter if from brick & mortar walmart or Amazon.com) install & play in an hour & being able to pick, choose & download the patches while I play & install them at my discretion.

Patching isn't required by Steam nor exclusive to Steam, as I tried to explain in the last thread.

[Laura Richards]

Farmville, as far as I know, is only available through Facebook. I don't know of anyone who went to the store and bought the title only to get home and find out it requires Facebook. This is what Steam does. Any title requiring Steam is an automatic No Sale for me, this goes for a lot of other DRM schemes as well. If the world of video games has taught us anything then even the most hardcoe fans should be able to acknowledge that one size does not fit all, if it did then all games would be Pacman-Clones that require Steam.

I think that Steam is a small step in a great direction, but a larger step in a horrible one. The world of video game DRMs is so convoluted and varied that it has become a miasma. One game requires a constant online connection, another limits the number of times it can be installed another looks at your hardware configuration and limits itself to that configuration. Not only is this extremely obtrusive and short sighted, it is also ineffective at stopping piracy, and may even encourage it. Steam may be the “lesser of the evils” but it is still plagued with the same problems, the lesser of two evils is still an evil.

It’s not just Steam; I dislike all online activation because the physical media can outlast the online presence. When someone installs a Steamworks game from a disc, let’s say it’s Fallout: New Vegas, the install program first makes them logon to their Steam account. If the Steam servers are ever taken offline how would the install executable on that disc know that the online component is no longer required? I’ve heard time and time again that there is a contingency plan involving an official No-Steam patch; but again, with the Steam servers taken down, how do we get that patch?

To be fair I do think that Steam has a lot to offer many gamers, but the fact that they force themselves on the rest of the gaming community makes me question their value. They have a business model that guarantees they will never face any serious competition. By promising a world of benefits to the game developers they are able to irrevocably tie themselves to a title, and thus able to assimilate the developers loyal fan base. Many see this as a lawsuit waiting to happen, and when it does it will be very ugly for all involved. I personally want no part of it. I believe that if a court were to rule that these are in fact unfair business practices then the resolution would require going back to games like Fallout: New Vegas and Civilization V and recalling all the Steamworks discs and releasing non Steamworks versions. The cost of such action could feasibly bankrupt some game developers.

Let’s pretend that I’m a smart programmer/marketing/business kinda guy and I have made my very own online distribution/verification/community program that can do everything Steam does but better. Like not having to install a client and offering developer patch rollbacks. My DRM would also go on the physical media but offer the choice at installation: Do you want to activate this game online? “Yes” will take the activation key from the disc and register it, “No” will require disccheck and maybe periodic reentering of the activation key. At anytime you can connect and register and thus eliminate the disc and key requirements. If an online connection is detected, either on install or launch, the game could still connect and verify whether or not the activation code is valid or already in use, that could be a small deterrent. There could also be a piece of code that checks the current date so that the DRM can automatically be bypassed after a set amount of time. I could link to GFWL/Steam/Impulse/D2D/GOG accounts and acknowledge that you already own all those titles. I could offer game demos where you get the full game for a limited time and if you like it you buy it and it gets officially activated, otherwise it gets taken off your account and you are no longer allowed to play it. Maybe extend the service to movies, music, books and other programs. Of course this would never happen without a huge team of lawyers involved. I mean, would you want to sign up for yet another online gaming service if it made all these great promises above the disclaimer “Not valid for games made by Bethesda, EDIOS, EA, Ubisoft….(2 dozen developer later) or for any of the following titles…”

[Campbell]

It's totally within the developers rights to force people to use a certain version of a patch. Maybe that's one of the reasons so many companies have been opting for Steam lately.

If I release a game I would always make sure that the latest patch was installed for ALL users, I wouldn't even make it optional to patch. I would want people to enjoy the game as I intended them to enjoy it.

but in a Single-player otherwise offline game why would you feel the need the force your will on all the players especially if it's a game that's supposed to be about freedom to choose for oneself like in Beth's RPG's & beth's patches aren't always the best so to me choice is key/

Patching isn't required by Steam nor exclusive to Steam, as I tried to explain in the last thread.

that's true after the initial patching. It's not possible to skip the first patching in New Vegas for example.

[Georgia Fullalove]

I love steam. I own about twenty games between me and my bro's account. They made 1 billion dollars in 2010, which I find incredible.

It combines my PC functions into one program, which is useful.

[Roisan Sweeney]

Step 1: Print out the covert art for Skyrim
Step 2: Glue it on an empty DVD case
Step 3: ????
Step 4. PROFIT!!

seriously, I'm on fire today, is there a problem I can't solve?

Thats just a knock off of a glorious case :dry:

I have no problem if it does release for Steam.

But I only understand one side of the argument, Steam does not work for everyone, that is a fact.

I don't get why all of the steam lovers want to force steam on the people that hate it :shrug:

[Jamie Lee]

Thats just a knock off of a glorious case :dry:

I have no problem if it does release for Steam.

But I only understand one side of the argument, Steam does not work for everyone, that is a fact.

I don't get why all of the steam lovers want to force steam on the people that hate it :shrug:

Nobody is going to force anything on anyone. That just isn't possible. Some want to share what they like about Steam just as others want to express what they don't like. It's fine to disagree. But in the end it will be Bethesda Softworks that decided what DRM will be used, Steam or another. One form or other will no doubt be used. And those who hate it will refrain from buying the games and those who like it will be happy for the choice regardless of what it is.

Todd once said that you can please some of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people. That statement is true in choosing DRM as well.

Bottom line is, nobody here is forcing anything on anyone. But everyone on all sides of the issue can and will express their thoughts, share their experience and sometomes those experiences will be different. It will do no good for one side or the other to act as if someone is shoving something down their throat when in fact, nobody can. It's up to us each individually to believe what we believe, search out the facts for ourselves and to decide in the end what to do with that information. Let's not start a tit for tat round.

[Dean Brown]

I love steam been using it for years without any problems. I now only buy games on steam and nowhere else.

[Johanna Van Drunick]

Why cant we have both?

We all know DRM was never intended to stop pirating, so why is it even an issue here? Niether Steam nor disc check is any more effective then the other in that regard. Using both types of DRM is perfectly feasible.

Todd once said that you can please some of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people. That statement is true in choosing DRM as well.

I respectfully disagree with my every being. The only people concerned with the DRM are those that are going/want to buy the game. Todd was refering to game developers choice in game content cant please everyone, and while DRM choice could potentially not please everyone, it is possible to please everyone in this matter by simply providing both DRM options.

Sometimes the best answer IS the simple one.

[Laura Mclean]

The more I deal with these things the more I hate them. After slowing down my patches for other games by downloading a patch every day for the 3 games I have. I decided to put it in offline mode. Now everytime I start up the computer I get the lovely "steam is in offline mode" pop up. How nice of it, it also doesn't give me the option of "do not show this message again", that's awesome. And that's why I hate steam and impulse because they never shut up, they always seam to be grabbing for my attention so I can remember to buy their stuff. I'll play your games when I want to and I'll update them then. It works for Minecraft, Starcraft and EVE online so why can't it work with them? Besides that though they do offer a good service.

Edit: and now that I think about it, I never have this problem with the two games I have for GFWL.

[Grace Francis]

I think that Steam is a small step in a great direction, but a larger step in a horrible one.[...]know that the online component is no longer required?

I'll just single out those two sentences.
First one: Yes, it is a step in a horrible one, if they were ever to build a complete monopoly. That's what the online market still needs, more direct competition. I think the acquisition of Impulse through GameStop - as unfortunate as it being in the hands of that hideous giant now is - shows the first steps to a very interesting future for PC games purchasing.
Second: A Valve employee once mentioned this - basically, if Steam were to ever go out of business, they would just need to release their very own unlock tools, which can unlock game files on a disc and downloaded game backups without the need to check in with the Steam servers.

We all know DRM was never intended to stop pirating, so why is it even an issue here? Niether Steam nor disc check is any more effective then the other in that regard. Using both types of DRM is perfectly feasible.

Disc checks are not DRM. They are a copy protection to ensure that you don't do anything illegal with the copy you bought. Digital rights management is used to make sure that your copy only stays your copy. Big difference.

Edit: and now that I think about it, I never have this problem with the two games I have for GFWL.

Then you need to do that harder. Every time you start a game that's not updated with GfWL, it will bother you about an available patch, if you have not installed it yet.

[FITTAS]

Then you need to do that harder. Every time you start a game that's not updated with GfWL, it will bother you about an available patch, if you have not installed it yet.

If you can even connect to the GfWL servers. Every time I try to play Dawn Of War 2 I cannot connect to the servers or it says my password is wrong. Half the time I give up out of frustration.

I have had no problems with steam that were not created by my stupidity.

[Steve Smith]

Then you need to do that harder. Every time you start a game that's not updated with GfWL, it will bother you about an available patch, if you have not installed it yet.

True. And in some cases it even restricts you from saving/loading saves if you don't log in and update GFWL.

Bulletstorm wouldn't even let me reach the main menu without updating and logging into GFWL. Which made things awkward when finishing the GFWL update required me to exit the game, forcing me to ctrl+alt+del because it wouldn't let me access the menu.

[sw1ss]

Bulletstorm wouldn't even let me reach the main menu without updating and logging into GFWL. Which made things awkward when finishing the GFWL update required me to exit the game, forcing me to ctrl+alt+del because it wouldn't let me access the menu.

Yes, Bulletstorm has been bitten in the rear by GFWL. A little. Then it shot it, leashed it and slammed it in the ground after, so it now behaves. ^_^

That's the thing I like with Steamworks - Valve actually checks whether it's integrated well and only then gives projects a go. They don't only care about your money, they want you to be able to enjoy the game, no matter how many people rave on about plans to enslave all gamerdom, or something.
MS on the other hand doesn't really seem to care about someone keeping up standards for Live! integration. Somewhat silly, considering they are the ones who actually made gaming on these machines so convenient. Anyway, rambling away from the topic.

[Charity Hughes]

Second: A Valve employee once mentioned this - basically, if Steam were to ever go out of business, they would just need to release their very own unlock tools, which can unlock game files on a disc and downloaded game backups without the need to check in with the Steam servers.

Let's say I get in the mood to play some classic Fallout at a point in time many years from now. I can install 1, 2 and 3 no problem. Now I want to install New Vegas, it was a Steam game but Steam went out of business years ago. I put the disc in my machine for the first time in years, and it wants to connect to Steam. Oops! I forgot about needing the unlock tool! I use-to-could go to the Steamworks site and get them, but that site no longer exists, so now what? I'm sure that a quick search on the internet, if I still have it, will brinth up a plethora of links. But which can be trusted? When Steam closes their doors who gets the keys? I've emailed VALVe about this and some other issues, but I've never gotten a response. I guess they don't care about shunning a single potential customer when their business model brings in more customers everytime a new game is released.

[krystal sowten]

The more I deal with these things the more I hate them. After slowing down my patches for other games by downloading a patch every day for the 3 games I have. I decided to put it in offline mode. Now everytime I start up the computer I get the lovely "steam is in offline mode" pop up. How nice of it, it also doesn't give me the option of "do not show this message again", that's awesome. And that's why I hate steam and impulse because they never shut up, they always seam to be grabbing for my attention so I can remember to buy their stuff. I'll play your games when I want to and I'll update them then. It works for Minecraft, Starcraft and EVE online so why can't it work with them? Besides that though they do offer a good service.

Edit: and now that I think about it, I never have this problem with the two games I have for GFWL.

Why don't you just uncheck the "run Steam when my computer starts" option? :unsure:

Let's say I get in the mood to play some classic Fallout at a point in time many years from now. I can install 1, 2 and 3 no problem. Now I want to install New Vegas, it was a Steam game but Steam went out of business years ago. I put the disc in my machine for the first time in years, and it wants to connect to Steam. Oops! I forgot about needing the unlock tool! I use-to-could go to the Steamworks site and get them, but that site no longer exists, so now what? I'm sure that a quick search on the internet, if I still have it, will brinth up a plethora of links. But which can be trusted? When Steam closes their doors who gets the keys? I've emailed VALVe about this and some other issues, but I've never gotten a response. I guess they don't care about shunning a single potential customer when their business model brings in more customers everytime a new game is released.

That's quite simple. All Valve has to do is change the Steam server to a small relay that unlocks the game when they try connecting to it.

I don't know if that's their specific plan, but it seems like a logical solution that won't make all your games into coasters.

[Sammi Jones]

Why don't you just uncheck the "run Steam when my computer starts" option? :unsure:


That's quite simple. All Valve has to do is change the Steam server to a small relay that unlocks the game when they try connecting to it.

I don't know if that's their specific plan, but it seems like a logical solution that won't make all your games into coasters.

How do I do this with Civilization V? Or to greater effect, how do you install a steam game you only own digitally if their servers are down?

[louise hamilton]

How do I do this with Civilization V? Or to greater effect, how do you install a steam game you only own digitally if their servers are down?

No one knows that yet. If you mean servers going down temporarily, I don't think that even happens except for maintenance, which they will announce beforehand.

[Robert Jr]

Down, as in, out of business.

[Kelsey Anna Farley]

Down, as in, out of business.

I imagine they'll make an announcement beforehand to tell everyone to back-up their games.