Steam works for what I want. I don't need to keep track of any discs. Years ago when I bought a gaming rig I noticed I lost my disc to Half Life 2 and when I discovered that all I had to do was redownload it I was hooked on Steam.


Some people want to have a physical disc and I understand that. But Steam fits my needs exactly. Same reason why I love GoG. All I have to do is redownload my Ultima games without looking for a disc. Same with Stardock and my digital copy of Galactic Civ II.

Of course you would.

I have never encountered anyone, on this forum or any other, who says people who like Steam should not be allowed to use it. I have encountered you, and many others, who say that since they like Steam everyone being forced to use it if they want to play games is just fine. And you are far from the only one who believes that we should not only be forced to use what you like but shouldn't be allowed to complain about it either.

I understand where people are coming from, i despise DRM and think it shouldn't exist.

But people are talking about Steam as if it is the worst thing in the world.

In regards to the 'world' of playing computer games Steam is the worst thing in that 'world' for me at present...and I would guess many others.

Every time I see you say that you 'despise DRM' I mentally add 'unless they wrap it in a pretty package like Valve did'. Throw in a pretty package and you will defend what you despise ad nauseum.

it's not the worst thing but with it being so prevalent it makes PC gaming needlessly an issue if the end user isn't in an ideal location or situation (Rural America, or over seas in Active duty).

It's not like we're asking Bethesda to make sure everyone gets a meal, we just want them to make it easier for us to buy the games they should be selling

Oh, I too have dealt with many "You're not a gamer if you don't worship in the house of Gabe" types

Gabe Newell is a moron full of inconsistencies and false promises.

The point i am making is that there are much worse DRMs than the one included with Steam, much worse.

Darn few. There are also better, much better...so why belabor the point that there are worse? Steam is DRM in a package you think is pretty. That package doesn't make it 'good' DRM. I personally don't like the DRM or the package, so it irks me no end to find it 'on my doorstep'...especially in cases where it takes me by surprise.

As in I bought a DVD that is clearly marked as having three games on it. Since the three games were originally released in the CD days there is enough room on the DVD for all three but in reality there is only one game on the disk. The other two are just activation codes for Steam so I can turn on the downloads. If I wanted to spend hours on downloads why do they think I bought the disk?

As in I removed the Steam client. Hey, I got interrupted by real life before I killed the 'Steam auto-update feature'. Hey, it did a complete Steam client reinstall by the time I got back to my machine.

As in 'you will have to have Steam to activate this product' actually meaning 'you will have to have the Steam client running on your machine any time you want to use this product'.

You need an Xbox to run Xbox games and a Playstation to run Playstation games, you need Steam to run PC games.

get over it

Some of them. Some of them you need to accept SecuROM. Some of them you need to keep track of the disk. Some of them you just need to update the decryption key if you install major new hardware. Some you don't need to do any of those things. I prefer the latter two over the first two hands down, and I'm okay with the middle one.

This is just ignorance to the fact that an Xbox and a Playstation is like the Computer itself...

Now a much better argument would be if you need Xbox Live or PSN to run their games... However, both Xbox Live and PSN are MOSTLY optional (not always). The only time you need them would probably be for downloading digital stuff and even then, it is temporally...

From there, only an extremely few games NEEDS that constant Xbox Live/PSN connection. One I've bumped into is a poker game (Which I got the demo and had fun but once I went offline, I figured it out and was like "NOPE!").

FYI: Steam is just like that.

EA and Ubisoft are happy to sell you Steam-free physical copies of their games. They only require that you use their online DRM instead. Would you be ok with Bethesda rolling their own online DRM/digital download client if it meant that you didn't have to use Steam? Not being argumentative...just honestly curious.

It's not, though. If it were the same then Microsoft and Sony would allow 3rd-parties to manufacture consoles that were compatible with Xbox and Playstation games. They also wouldn't use proprietary formats for their media that make said media unreadable in any hardware that isn't their specific hardware that they designed specifically to run those games. They don't need online DRM because the consoles themselves along with their proprietary media formats are DRM.

If they started to use media in a standard Blu-Ray data format that's readable by devices that are not the specific console that was designed to read an intentionally-closed format then I might begin to agree with you. If they did that as well as allowed their games to be run on 3rd-party hardware then I'd completely agree with you. Until then you can't compare the DRM situation of PCs and consoles...they're completely different worlds.

I think you misread what I was saying.

I was pointing out the comparison between PCs, consoles, and Steam. Gaming wise, there is nothing different between using a PC and using a console for gaming except for one. PC versions can be modded. Otherwise, both are basically the same for gaming... Put disc in, install, and play. (Heck, consoles normally don't require installation actually).

Steam however... Is different when compared to the consoles. Steam requires you to not only install the game but also go online with the Steam client to 'check' it and bunch of other annoying stuff that I don't support as well as a forced online account. It is NOT like that with the consoles (Except for Xbox One. They forced the online activation thing for the console itself... They didn't forced it onto the games though, just the console itself).

Yep, that's a difference. PC games also tend to be more configurable as well, but that's beside the point. All I was saying is that the reason for this difference is that consoles don't need additional DRM. They are DRM along with their proprietary media formats. Physical media for PCs has to be in an open, standard format that can be read by any PC and copied, distributed online, etc. If they (consoles) didn't have those two things in place for DRM I'm pretty sure a lot of console publishers would require XBL or PSN for game activation. I'm not advocating that (because again, I'm not any bigger fan of DRM than anyone else is), but I'm pretty sure it's the case.

I know what you are saying and I agree with what ya meaning. I'm just saying though, gaming wise... They are similar. Hacking wise, they are not. (Like you said, easier to copy and read the info of a PC game than a console game).

If gamesas opted to use Impulse DRM instead of Steam I would call it a huge step in a good direction.

Meanwhile, when you jumped into this facet of the argument:

I think you needed to put it into the context of how consoles got into the discussion in the first place, which was this statement:

"You need an Xbox to run Xbox games and a Playstation to run Playstation games, you need Steam to run PC games."

Your comments are, as always, accurate and on point...but put into context you are supporting an inane premise, which I bet was not your intent..

Yep, you're absolutely right. I failed at reading back far enough to gather the context. Thank you for pointing that out.

Note to self: this conversation repeats every 3 pages, not every 2. Kidding.

Dude how many times do I have to explain to you.

When PC versions of video games are sold exclusively on Steam only and not on gog.com as well Steam is the worst Digital Rights Management (DRM) copy protection client software in existence for PC versions of video games.

If those PC versions of video games that are sold on Steam are also sold 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free on gog.com then Steam is not bad.

If the PC versions of video games from AAA video game publishing companies and AAA video game development companies get sold in physical boxed versions to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free alongside a 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free version on gog.com as well then I will be happy and purchase that PC version of a video game 3 times. 1 physical boxed version, 1 gog.com copy, and 1 Steam copy. I have been using Steam since 2004 I still like Steam. It's the PC versions of video games getting sold on Steam exclusively and the physical boxed versions of the PC versions requiring you to have Steam downloaded and installed that pisses me off a lot and to not purchase those PC versions of video games at all.

Is this really hard for you to understand?

probably...

Because they are pushing it that way, yes. Boxed retail versions are not hard or expensive to make, provided it′s done in a large scale and in a smart way.

Honestly I would be ok with digital releases if I felt I could trust them, but I can′t. You say that if I lose my copy of a game because of a crash I can download it again for free. But what if my internet connection fails? What if Steam goes under? What if they change their policy? What if one out of hundreds of other reasons? If I have a physical copy it won′t go away because of a decision or because a company goes under.

I'm sorry but your assessment is not accurate. Everything you mention is true, but it does not rank Steam the worst. To say that is to exclude the existence of Starforce. Starforce was malware and came on physical disc copies of PC games in the mid 2000's attached to big names lots of people were likely to buy such as Splinter Cell. Starforce caused physical harm to computers, and that is not an exaggeration. Nothing is worse than Starforce as far as DRM goes.

No not because they are pushing boxed retail away. Try not to look in terms of now, the next day or the next year. In 10 years or 20 years, I really think there won't be PC physical Copies left. The thing is, digital =/= physical and yet digital is set at the same price. If anything, physical should be more expensive. Same goes for where its sold. If its sold on steam and they have a lower % they take from each game sold than say 360, than the price should be impacted.

I have been playing PC versions of video games since 1998 and purchasing physical boxed versions of PC versions of video games since 1998 so I know stuff like CD Keys and StarForce came into existance in the early 2000's.

I know there is also email based accounts, Kalypso's Digital Rights Management (DRM) which is a email based account, SONY's SecuROM, TAGES, and TopWare's Reality Pump Digital Rights Management (DRM). So why am I being told this again?

Those are all worst Digital Rights Management (DRM) copy protection client software than Steam. But once a PC version of a AAA video game is sold on Steam exclusively or the physical boxed version of a AAA video game has Steam as a requirement then in this day Steam is the worst.

Physical boxed versions of PC versions of video games will still be sold to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide 10 years from now.

I think any software that can harm hardware ranks the worst. Only Starforce did this.

You said you would buy a Steam copy as long as physical copies were still available (they won't be 100% DRM free as CD/DVD-ROMs, may still have a simple disc check). The Steam DRM is the same regardless of whether the physical copy is made available or not. That's just doing it on principle. Which there is nothing wrong with. Standing up for what you believe in is admirable and perfectly fine.

I don't care if there are simple disc checks. As long as that disc check does not destroy my CD-ROM disc or DVD-ROM disc inside my CD-ROM drive, DVD-ROM drive or Blu-ray drive. Then I will be happy. I actually enjoy putting the CD-ROM disc or DVD-ROM disc in my DVD-ROM drive then waiting for the install box to pop up and click to install the video game then once the video game finishes installing click play.

When I say 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free I am saying no CD Keys, Electronic Arts (EA's) Origin, email based accounts (email based accounts are ok for MMO video games only), SONY's SecuROM, StarForce, Steam, Steam Works, Ubisoft's uPlay, etc on the physical boxed versions of the PC versions of video games sold.

Maybe it's nostalgia but I enjoy that a whole lot especially looking at the screenshots of the video game while it's installing .

I might be the only PC gamer who likes this LOL.