Another person whos complaining....I respect your opinion but see it as wrong, the direction they are taking is very good and correct, the perk system describe is much better then fallouts design and the graphics vastly outweigh oblivions I mean look at the characters.....and crossbows don't bother me nor do spears. It is all down to personal preference

Could be worse. The Final Fantasy fandom just has to hear "They've announced a new game", to rush to the forums to declare it the worst/best one yet.

This thread is so much win because we all know that RPGs is all about numbers.

I estimate that by TES VII all you can upgrade is stranth!

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/558516

Well, given the record sheet I've had to keep by my desk in order to have any control over my leveling in Morrowind and Oblivion, "numbers" have certainly been a big part of the modern game and are probably important to at least part of the fanbase.

1. Spears are a minor weapon, you'll have countless choices that you'll forget that Spears were suppsose to be in this game.
2. Classes removed are a good thing it adds more customization to the game because you aren't restricted like you were with Classes.
3. Crossbows you could make a point for them but I think the upgrades to the Bow will be for the better and you won't worry about Crossbows when you see the new Bows in action.
4. Spellmaking hasn't been 100% confirmed that it's gone but I hope it is. The Spells you could create are already broken enough plus the new spells in the game will be able to do more then the Oblivion spells could
5. 85 spells is plenty
6.The Birthsigns leaving I'm mixed on but You'll have enough perks that you won't need to worry about birthsigns.
7. Graphics look much better then they did in Oblivion, I'm not worried.
8. Again it hasn't been 100% confirmed that Attributes are gone. I mean you got to have some way of keeping track of how much weight you can carry.
9. I believe that the PC version will be adapted to make it just as easy to use the UI as the Consoles
10. There is nothing wrong with Fast Travel and in fact you'll raise your skills faster if you don't use Fast Travel.

The Changes are for the better but I would wait for more info before jumping to conclusions.

Me too; most posts are starting to be the posts about complaints. :unsure2:

I can vouch for that.


That is a modded Oblivion, not a fair comparison.

This is a fair comparison.
http://thewormhole.nfshost.com/OblivionSkyrimCompare.png

From the GI Podcast Q&A which was transcribed by member Vamphaery :

1.-( No spears.) yeah well, big disapoint this but thinking btter my character won't use them, and in elder scrolls 3 nobody use them

2.- (Classes removed. Again....what?!?!) mmm think anou it in another way "the clases still there but now are invisible" i needed to replay 4 times oblivion until i chose in a correct way my character skills, atributes, etc, the new approach is way much better

3.- (No crossbows. Todd thinks they are stupid. Oblivion NPC M'aig confirms this) well men they are xD. i preffer improve the archer skills instead of have 2 $#%& rangd weapons

4.- (Spellmaking removed) this svcks but maybe this time i take seriusly the regular spells xD

5.- (Less spells) quality over quantity

6.- (Fallout-like perks replace birthsigns. :/) i love the perks idea, and the birthsigns svcks, I committed suicide in oblivion by choosing the birtsign that inutilizes the mana bar, in the scond round the stupid birthsign that gave the "invisibility power" it was in the third tim when i choose well my birthsign (the warrior)

7.-(Graphics looks only SLIGHTLY improved from Oblivion) what?! well are you talking seriusly?, WHEN I SAW THE GI PICS i didnt notized that they are screenshots instead of art paints


8.-(No more attributes) [censored] NOW my game is ruined! i cant allocate points!! o NOOOO!... sarcasm :confused:

9.- (UI is inspired by apple with no mouse suppor) POPLE PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS THERE ARE 2 UI (ONE FOR XBOX AND ONE FOR PC DONT CRY!)

10.-(Fast travel, compass both return in this game) stills the hope of hardcoe mode (without fast travel etc.)



:thumbsup:

@OP: These are all fair criticisms and they are in the back of my head too, but I guess I accepted that Skyrim isn't Morrowind 2. If we got those things they wouldn't make the game better, I'm sure there will be things to criticize in Skyrim, but these are not necessarily the ones.

Edit: @Summer: Nice transcript :goodjob:

Ugh you spoiled it for me!

When was that confirmed???

That's assuming that they're making mistakes. Just because they do something you don't like, doesn't mean it's a "mistake."

somwhere xD i can't rmmber xD

Just for fun, and hopefully to cheer up Sapphirine a bit, let's run through these:



No spears "in the classic spear sense." Viking one-handed throwing spears aren't really the classic spear sense (and I think we've heard throwing weapons are in). Also, latest reports have confirmed that some kind of pole-arm is in the game, at least.



Oh, for crying out loud. Worst marketing decision ever, Bethesda. The class system has not been removed, it's just:

1. Been made into a soft restriction rather than a hard one. You level faster by raising your class skills, but still get something for raising your other skills.
2. Been made dynamic, so that your "class skills" are always your highest ones - if you've spent the entire game studying magic, the game won't refuse to treat you as a magic specialist just because you told Baurus you were a warrior.
3. Had the class names removed.

In other words, the new "class system" encourages specialization the same way the old one did, but in a more elegant and organic way.



Crossbows aren't very Nordic.



Not confirmed. "Todd says it was a wildcard that they hadn't decided on yet, but Todd is a lying liar, therefore it is confirmed to not be in" is some kind of twisted unlogic.



What? I mean, if it turns out spellmaking doesn't go in, you ignore the spell variations, and you count different versions of the same spell effect as different spells then I guess so. But Skyrim has more spell effects than Oblivion, and more variety within those spell effects.



Again, we no nothing about where birthsigns have gone off to. Also, what's wrong with Fallout-like perks? Is it just that they were in Fallout? Fallout also had character customization, items, and skills. Should Skyrim not have those things? Perks are a good game mechanic, why shouldn't Skyrim use them?



So?



I'll give you these three, but I think they're more annoying than real dealbreakers. Besides, supposedly we could turn the compass off, and attributes were never really as important as skills in the grand scheme of things.



Honestly, while I'm annoyed by the last three changes there, I think they're more than balanced out by all the good changes - polearms back, perks could open up new avenues for specialization and interesting gameplay, the crafting and resource gathering options are cool and open the game up more for roleplayers, the characters no longer look like mutant fish people, and there's an entire new magic system in addition to the old one. So far, things seem pretty good.

I'm not to sure about throwing weapons or pole arms (two handed axes with long handles, which is really just a design choice unless they have perks separate from other two handed axes.)

I think Skyrim will be the game that Oblivion should have been. It's still got some of the good streamlining stuff (I think the one-handed two-handed but with perks favors customization and realism) but also still refuses to increase complexity in areas that need it, such as weapon variety, fast travel, etc.

I know Bethesda is targeting a large market, and I respect that. Even if their goal is purely monetary (which would depress me) you get more people interested into the genre. But they need to acknowledge that it was older fans who allowed their company to come this far. Without the success of Morrowind, there would be no Oblivion, no Skyrim, no Bethesda. Or they did exist, it would be a subsidiary owned by Activision, designing add on content for Call of Duty.

So when the older fans ask for stupid stuff like spears, other fast travel options...please listen. They brought you this far. Obviously you can't satisfy every request. But don't blow them off.

This thread is going in circles...:facepalm:

:rofl:

Honestly, while I'm annoyed by the last three changes there, I think they're more than balanced out by all the good changes - polearms back, perks could open up new avenues for specialization and interesting gameplay, the crafting and resource gathering options are cool and open the game up more for roleplayers, the characters no longer look like mutant fish people, and there's an entire new magic system in addition to the old one. So far, things seem pretty good.
[/quote]

1. Yeah perks could be interesting. If they take the perk system in a completely opposite direction from fallout 3. No more generic perks with passive abilities. Try something that is actually creative rather than "oh my character is good with maces so he passively ignores armor". I don't want Skyrim to be a Nordic version of "Borderlands"

2. Polearms! Very cool. Hope the animations are awesome.

3. Crafting system.... this one worries me. I don't want to play a pretty version of "farmville". Yes you can gather iron ore. yes you can probably make your own weapons with smithing. What about cooking, fishing, tanning and other possiblities. Maybe skin legendary creatures for the hide. Make a trophy out of it or something. This one will need a lot of depth and creativity to keep me interested.

4. Not sure what you mean about a new magic system in addition to the old one. The odds are HIGH that spellmaking will not make a return due to the new magic system. I don't think Beth wants to add a shallow system like Oblivion. I reallly think the new system sounds great. They do need spell finishing moves though.

5. Amen to the crazy looking plastic surgery rejects from OB. All of the inhabitants of Cyrodiil looked like they were born from the surgeon freaks in "Escape from L.A."

Spears: I wanted them too. I've been playing a character in Morrowind who uses a spear, just to see for myself if they were unbalanced. The backpedaling thing is pretty bad. As long as I have room to maneuver, I hit far more than I am hit. If I stay in one place, go toe to toe, the advantage disappears. I still think it's the backpedaling that's the issue, not the spears themselves, but the developers must know something I don't. I hope they fix it, but one weapons inclusion or exclusion is a pretty petty matter, in the end.

Classes removed: I never used the pre-made classes anyway, I saw them as restricting and the skill allocations were just bad to me. I always went custom. The only difference I see is that there will no longer be major or minor skills, so all your skills will develop at the same speed now. I'll still call myself a class of some sort.

Spellmaking removed: still up in the air, but I'm concerned about this too. My mages made a lot of custom spells, especially if they were Atronachs, so I could control my magicka use. This is a "wait and see" issue for me. Magic appears to be getting a huge overhaul. The proof will be in the pudding. When I get the game, and play it, will it still have the same depth? Right now I just don't have enough information to tell.

Attributes removed: still up in the air, but I'm also concerned about this one. I like having some tangible reference of my characters qualities. An overall view. I'm still unconvinced that the skills and perks will fill this gap. Again, another "wait and see" issue.

Graphics don't bother me. As long as they improve the faces from Oblivion, I'm happy. :sick:

Fast Travel and the Compass: Not a big fan of the fast travel system either, but I just limit myself in Oblivion and the Fallouts, and I'll probably do the same in Skyrim. It didn't effect my ability to enjoy those games. The compass isn't an issue at all with me, because there's been a compass in every ES game. In Morrowind, the little map in the lower right acts as a compass. It's the quest markers that I have issue with. I don't need my hand held. I'm a big boy now.

Even with the above concerns, I'm still excited about the game. It's a gut feeling, but with so little info, that's all I have to go on.

By "new magic system in addition to the old one," I meant we'll have the old magic system (plus the new varied spell effects, possibly minus spellcrafting) alongside thu'um, which is a completely new magic system.

I'm pretty sure cooking, and possibly farming were mentioned as being part of the economic side of things. I don't expect them to have tremendous depth, but at least it's something to do. If you want to roleplay a blacksmith, that option is now available where it wasn't in Oblivion, or even in Morrowind. Obviously, the deeper they make this the better, though.

And while I'd like to see some more creative perks thrown in, they do need to have some "passive bonuses for using a specific type of weapon" perks. That's how the perk system is supposed to be replacing skills as your primary method for weapon specialization.

I agree with you in principle, though. I'd like to see a lot more perks that open up interesting new gameplay possibilities, not just ones that help you to specialize.

Thu'um is greater powers

1. Spears are a pretty primitive tools. Humans have been using it for hundreds of thousands of years, and there are other primates that even use it, although in a much simpler fashion. But you know what, not having one type of weapon isn't going to ruin the series. Oblivion didn't have spears and Morrowind would still be a great game without them.

2. Classes are way too restrictive, and ruined my ability to role-play. I would often pick a class, regret it later, and then start the game over again. It's much more fun to work on the skills you want while actually playing the game, and actually get you role-playing.

3. Crossbows are neat, but again same with spears, their not that important in defining the series, and I would rather have them improve the bow and arrow.

4. The magic/ spell system has been greatly overhauled, from what I've been told.

5. There are going to be less spells, about 85.

"Even if you can't combine spells, magicka students will have no shortage of options, with over 85 spells divided into five schools of magic – destruction, restoration, illusion, alteration, and conjuration."

But there are more things that can be done with spells, at least in the school of destruction from what we know:

"For instance, you could blast enemies with a flame ball from afar, hold the button down to wield the spell like a flame thrower, place a rune on the ground to create an environmental trap that spontaneously combusts when an enemy steps on it, or equip the spell with both hands to deliver high damage fireball attacks that drain your magicka reserves quickly. The shock and frost spells give players an equal amount of flexibility."

They're still playing with the possibility of combining spells. Spell making is also being considered, but it may not fit well with the newly built system. Oblivion had well over 200 spells I belief, but I can bet most players never used more than 50, if that, and many of those spells were redundant in my opinion.

6. "Three prominent nebulae dominate the Skyrim heavens – the thief, the warrior, and the mage. Each of these represents one of the three master skill sets. Each nebula houses six constellations, each of which represents a skill. "

"Every time players rank up their overall level, they can choose a supplemental perk ability for one of the 18 skills. For instance, if you fight most of your battles with a mace, you may want to choose the perk that allows you to ignore armor while using the weapon."

This sounds a hell of a lot better than Birthsigns, it allows us to build up our own unique character. It allows us to carve away our own place in the stars, sort of speak, and I find that concept completely fantastic.

7. Please tell me you're joking, for the Xbox 360, the graphics look beyond great, and won't interfere with my ability to enjoy this game. Daggerfall and Morrowind's graphics are outdated, but I still enjoy playing them. This game is made for current generation consoles and medium to high-end computers for a much wider audience. Despite what we may have seen in the past, revolutionary graphics is not what defines this series. They're pretty comfortable with the current technology, and what they're able to do with it.

8. We do have attributes in a way, but they improve within the level system. " Those ever ascending levels will be highly desired. Each level comes with an automatic boost in health, and then a CHOICE to further advance in health, or to improve either Magicka or stamina." I think this system will work well.

9. I don't understand how you think we can have a User interface and menu system without support for the mouse. It's going to released on the PC.

10. You don't have to use fast travel, a lot of people find it useful for their play style. In the GI magazine, it says there's a compass menu, and I think it's been said there will be a small constant compass in the corner, again it's a useful aid for a lot of people. I'm sure it won't be hard to ignore, but it would be nice if they made it toggled. Again, most players like to know the direction in which they are facing, and their location within the world. It depends on how you decide to role-play and experience the game.

Spears, Crossbows, and classes do not define this series. Each game is built from the ground up, and each one is going to be a little different. You may not like some of elements of the games system, but I highly doubt it will ruin your ability to play this game and enjoy it for what it is. Wait until the game is released to judge it, try it out with redbox or gamefly, and if you don't like it, don't buy it. I mean, we haven't even seen any video demo's, or gameplay footage yet to determine how all of these elements work together or how they feel in action. It's just way too early to judge the value of this game. If your'e playing on the PC, there are sure to be plenty of mods that will allow you to change and improve many of these things if they need to be.

I liked how you explained things there :thumbsup:
Better than i did.....well done