Well sure, they did for OB too. My point was they (general "they" not just specifically Beth) never put any thought into it, how does this font/size look, how should this window be sized/positioned, how should keybindings be used to greater extent. Things of that nature. Its always done with the least amount of work possible and usually ends up being terrible.

Have you seen the sales data for Cyrsis 2? I am referring to games in general not just Beth games and we are #3 even for Beth's games, even if Todd and Pete are exaggerating the numbers there 10% comment still makes it clear pc version sell the least(and get pirated the most, hmmm). So we have lots of data on many multi platform games, and 2 top Bethesda guys to based are opinion on for Beth specific games. Seem pretty clear to me, pc is number 3 in sales for multiplatform games. Check out tweakguides.con for more info more facts that confirm pc as the #3 platform for multiplatform games.

Crysis 2? You mean that PC gamers are about as hyped up about as a rock on the ground outside? The moment they went out and said "We butchered the engine / game to get it to consoles!" it was pretty much dead set that it wont sell very good on PC. Why should PC users be happy and buy "[censored]" and yes Crysis 2 is worse in about every way compared to crysis 1 and this is coming from a person that dont like fps games in general. Hell the PC version dont even have options there was a guy that had to make a tool so pc users could change it \o/.

Ok.....check out any other multiplatform game then. Anyway this was brought up in relation to the topic at hand, The point being we get bad UI because were(pc) number 3 in sales.

Why are people ignoring that Todd said the PC version is getting lots of love?

Because of the history of Beths UI on pc. And because Pete has stated that they thought they got things right with pc UI on FO3, that they knew what they were doing. When clearly there are issues. So Todd and Pete saying PC UI is being talking care of is not compelling. No one has argue the positives of the 3 major concerns I have said, a few said it did not bother them. And even more compling evidence there is an issue the is popularity of UI mods for Beths recent games on pc. Its pretty clear that there was issue with UI on pc(even Beth admits this).

UI mods being popular doesn't mean the default is bad. Have you seen some of the gaudy popular UIs, that are pretty much the antithesis of what many people here want? Custom UIs allow for personal taste in picking them. Not everyone likes the same thing.

A good example is the grid thing. I far prefer list inventories to grid inventories. I'm not a fan of the way Morrowind does inventory, for example.

I've been using DaRN UI for Oblivion for awhile now - the smaller font lets you pack more info into the menu screens, which is pretty handy.

Fallout 3, on the other hand, I haven't really felt any issues with. Sure, I could get a similar "small font" mod for that one, but it hasn't really felt wrong enough for me to bother. And the mouse seemed fine. :shrug:

The most popluar mods for all 3 games are not gaudy, there by Darn(and some other dude for FNV). And they are list view based, with Darn having the option for both.


Again the 3 questions. All things being equal and assuming no other negative impacts on gameplay.

Is having a load time better than not having a load time? Is FO3 better off having a half second delay to accses and exit the UI better and more enjoyable than not having the delay?
Is removing hotkeys(for maps & quests,etc) a good idea, in other words in FO3 UI better off with out them?
Is being able to see more information(grid or list) better than less, in other words is FO3 better off only using half the screen for the UI?

And thought experiments, imagen there is a half second delay when ever access thing like your tabs in your browser, exiting, bookmarks,etc any thing that before was instant.
2nd, resize all your windows you normally use to half size like FO3, so your browser window cut down the visible view by half. Now see how long before it bothers you?

And even if not of that is an issue, none of the 3 things bother you, is it better off that way?

Also the *sales* are NPD aka america only not including the EU which is PC>console in numbers. Also digital stuff, it's only when the publishers release the total sku tracker to there shareholders do we get real numbers like how BF:BC2 PC outsold the ps3 and 360, or take an indie game liek...super meat boy which sold bucket loads more on the pc than the 360.

Also if you sale a pc game for $30 on steam you make more money than selling a console game for $60 at gamespot/walmart/bestbuy ect.

Every Bioware game gets a solid PC UI, to the point where (IMO) they are much better controlled on PC. Every DICE game gets great love. Actually alot of EA games in general get great PC UI's even if they sell the least on PC.


I hope Skyrim are like those games instead of Oblivion/FO3 crappy PC UI. If an evil empire like EA does it, certainly Bethesda can...right??

I hope so. Some of what we know does sound neat, I just hope it plays neat as well.

You mean pulling up the PipBoy? (Load time? Is that a console thing? I just have the animation)

Honestly, didn't really bother me, since it fit the theme & concept of the game. In some other game, it might be annoying.... depends on how long the animation is and how often you end up doing it.
(I will say that the "you zoom in and out on a 3D map" thing for Skyrim sounds a little iffy.)



F1/F2/F3 for the three main sections of the pipboy? Didn't have a problem with that, it seemed like a good amount of hotkeys. (Were there more than that in Oblivion? I generally just use Tab to open the menus in that game....)



Again, I didn't have any problem with the pipboy interface. It fit the style of the game, and I didn't particularly feel any "OMG, they could be using more screen space!"




Repeating again, I didn't have any real issues with Fallout 3's interface. And like I said, it would depend on each individual game or program I use - different window sizes for different tasks is pretty normal for me.

And no - slow performance in tools that I'm using to do daily tasks would be annoying. Thematically "realistic" and "immersive" (HAH!) things in a game, that don't cause any real problems? Not the same thing. (You'll note that I'm not considering the Fallout 3 interface to be "slow". It does not have performance issues - it was deliberately designed to work that way. Slow performance in Firefox or Photoshop wouldn't be a stylistic decision - it'd be badly optimized software and/or incorrectly weak hardware.)

If something reduces or harms usability, it's a problem. I had no real usability issues with the FO3 interface. It worked for me, and it worked fine.


(An example of poor design harming usability - Borderlands interface font was a bit too big, because it used the console text for the PC interface. This meant that you couldn't see the fifth line of text on random weapons that had lots of additional powers. This, is a problem.)

You said it did not bother you, but you did not answer the questions, is it better because of it?

So I ask again, is a load time better than no load time? In another words is having an instant UI upon button press better than a delayed UI upon button press(and delayed exit too)
Is removing hotkeys a good thing, does having fewer hotkeys make the gamer better? In MW you could access the map and journal with one key press.
Is being able to see more information better than seeing less? (Check out DarnUI for OB for example, and is having to scroll to see all your items/quests in FO3 better than not having too?).

No one is saying yes to theese 3 things, some like you are saying they did not bother you. Check out the popularity of UI mods, clearly there is an issue. This is not like spears were it takes a lot of dev time to add what I am saying, this is not like scaling were some people like it, and some don't. This is an issue were a large portion of the fan base on pc wants some of these basic fixes, with other on pc not caring either way.

So why should Beth not consider these issues?

So for you the UI is either good or bad, no inbetweens?

Oblivion's/Fallout's AI wasn't perfect, but it wasn't outright horrible either. Maybe I'm just saying this because I've seen a lot worse console ports (we should be happy that we can use the mouse in the menus at all...). They should put in some improvements, but even if not, I won't mind, I can spend half more second to move my cursor to the button, I'm not going anywhere.

Perhaps, but judging from that pic, the skill bars could be reduced in size drastically, and I guess the constellations could be as well.

If you did that there would be even more wasted space above or below. You could put them into two rows, but that doesn't really make sense for a cycle of constellations.

Fallout was terrible(It could not be modded much), OB was pretty good(because it could be modded) imo. SR I don't know. Yes there is an in between. The point is these are things that alot of people care about, and are easy to fix. I am glad you admit that they should put in some improvements. This is a discussion about UI. Should those that have an issue with it not say anything? That is part of the reason for this board for Beth to hear from its user base. These fixes are simple, not complex like adding spears, or any of the other suggestions that take a lot of dev time. These things won't hurt anyone or make the game worse for them that did not have an issue with past UI. Its really a positive all around if Beth considers these things.

Reduced in size and tucked neatly into a corner or along the edge, is what I meant to say. The point is that that screenshot looks very "consoley", designed for people who navigate menues to the left or right with the thumbstick or d-pad rather than triumphantly hovering over menu items with the mouse. I guess dragging the mouse is an option, but it still feels unnecessarily cumbersome.

I was a fan of http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3595 for Oblivion. I'd be satisfied with something like that in Skyrim, but Bethesda could always surprise us with something even better. I have some faith in their new system. Sounds better than Fable III's Sanctuary at least.

Hmm. As far as I was aware, there were a decent number of Fallout 3 UI mods - ranging from a DaRN UI style thing (new fonts, new screen UI/hud) to the PipBoy Readius (?), the thing where you whipped out a PDA instead of the pipboy.


Now, yeah.... you still had to whip out some electronic device to see your stuff on, which seems to be your biggest issue (all this "loading time" stuff)..... personally, like I said, it seemed to fit the game's theme & world. And it really doesn't seem very slow - maybe you go to the pipboy alot more than I do, but I honestly never found myself thinking "OMG, hurry up, dammit!"

Don't know what else to say.


Yes, some things about the Skyrim UI seem a bit iffy to me. But until I actually USE the darn thing, I won't be able to really judge it.

edit: we just don't know enough, you know? Like, maybe you don't see that "scroll through the constellations" thing unless you're picking perks. Maybe the normal "skill view" is a list you can see at a glance. The things they've said about the map sound odd, but we haven't actually seen it in action. Etc, etc, etc.

Those UI mods for Fallout were very limited in what they could change unlike OB UI mods. For example no larger map, no grid view, no resizing of anything unlike DarnUI for OB. And my biggest issue is the lack of a one button hotkey for the map and quest in FO3, if I had that I would have been a lot less annoying at the half second thing, because thats all it would take, instead its F3, scroll mouse cusor, click. That is pointless for 2 things you use so much. As for the half second thing, its just pointless, it in no way makes the game more enjoyable its just a waste of time. Unlike MW were it was basically instant UI screen and UI exiting. I can look at some stat,map,etc in Morrowind and be back to playing the game in the time its takes someone to load up the UI in FO3 and get to the map or whatever.

And I am not passing jugdement, as I have stated all along these are just concerns based on past games and the little info we do know.

I hope the UI is good. Well find out.

I will say, the whole "the map is smaller than my screen due to frame/window/whatever" has never really bothered me. In OB or in FO3. The map view was the map view - you could see where things were, which direction to go, details..... I got UI mods for Oblivion to make the screen text smaller and the HUD less intrusive, but that's it. The map never gave me any issues.

I've avoided screen font & HUD mods for Fallout, because 1) didn't seem as necessary, and 2) they all seem to use high-techy-looking fonts. Which just don't fit the game's "feel" for me.
(maybe they have font options, but I've never looked that closely - I see the screenshots, and don't think that they look good.)

In default OB you can only see 1/3 or so of the map at once, its a lot better in Fallout. But in Fallout you have to scroll a lot more than you should because they only used half of the screen for the UI window. I used DarnUI for Fallout I don't know if it effected the hud, it did not make it look at different if it did, except for a better layout and smaller, like OB Darn UI did.

But anyway I hope SR UI address some of my and many others concerns.

I hope it's at least functional.

Keep It Simple Stupid. I'm not going to deal with another half assed attempt. I haven't bought a game PC game since GTA IV that I could actually get into 'cause of UI and other related port issues (mouse acceleration, lack of graphics features, etc). Yes GTA IV had many issues port related (missing moon lol, vendors, marquees, etc), but it was still playable to my standards. Played from beginning to end without a patch so... anyway...

The UI should be the easiest thing to deal with. I'm not sure why developers need to even get all crazy with it. I know they might want to be different from other games, but they shouldn't make it different UI/camera/charater control wise. Meh I couldn't even give an example on what would be best, but I just know I dislike recent iterations of UI's. In a RPG (or any game for that matter) I want it to be ALL about the GAMEPLAY. Not spending half my playtime fussing with tabs (oblivion) and other fancy non-functional artsy menus and what not.

In the end though if they don't (give in to our demands, muhahaha).. At least allow for FULL control over the UI to the modders. Not everyone is going to like what they do. Even if it is acceptable. Heh.