There is no issue with using some imagination, but the game provides little feedback for player actions. I can imagine things my character does and says, but there is little reason to do so when I could play a PnP game that is far more interesting as an exercise in pretend play.

The game lacks basic feedback in many circumstances. Bethesda failed to spend enough time on NPC - player interactions and quest choices.

Wrong. The Game Master creates an adventure in advance and then plays it out, altering and changing it in response to the players' actions. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it's clear that you haven't even seen a pen-and-paper RPG source book, much less played a single character in a PnP session. Otherwise, you wouldn't be making absurd claims that the game master is only giving the players tools to make the story.

Players are expected to actively participate in a game led by a Game Master and help him shape the story by offering cues, coming up with inventive methods to tackle obstacles etc., but that should not be confused with the Game Master's duty to prepare an interesting adventure, rehearse his NPCs and maintain the setting, atmosphere and react to the players. It isn't the players' job to act as Game Master.

In a pen and paper RPG, you're interacting with a live human being. We're a LONG way out from a computer program -especially one produced for entertainment, thus having strict deadlines, cost structures, and hardware compatibility issues- being able to even come close to the heuristic capabilities of the human mind.

A really good AI algorithm can somewhat make a believable conversationist, but will be limited in it's subject, and will take a very long time to develop. Having even the kind of AI that we CAN create right now available all throughout the world of Skyrim, as big as it is, would probably take several decades to produce, cost the end user thousands of dollars, and require hundreds of terabytes of storage space. Even then, it still wouldn't be as interactive as a live human being would be.

I never asked for something that would rival the adaptability of a human mind. I'm asking for something that at least attempts to offer choices more often than it doesn't. Skyrim allows me to choose, "Yes, I'll do it," or, "No, I won't," in the vast majority of it's quests. There are a handful that offer some degree of choice in completion or dialogue, but are few and far between.

I had hoped some Fallout might have rubbed off on Bethesda, but that's clearly not been the case.

Imagination is critically important.

It's what makes this extremely compelling: http://angband.oook.cz/screenstore/shot318.html


Those who have seen this for themselves understand exactly what I am talking about.

[U] Shelob, Spider of Darkness (Violet 'S')
=== Num:330 Lev:55 Rar:3 Spd:+10 Hp:3500 Ac:120 Exp:27000
Shelob is an enormous bloated spider, the last daughter of Ungoliant the Unlight. Her poison is legendary, as is her ego. She normally guards the pass through Cirith Ungol, but occasionally goes out foraging for food to feed her voracious appetite. This natural evil creature is normally found at depths of 2750 feet (level 55), and moves quickly. She may carry up to 3 good objects. She can bash down doors. She is hurt by bright light, but resists acid, poison, and rock remover, and cannot be confused or slept. She pays little attention to intruders, which she may notice from 300 feet. She usually appears with escorts. She may breathe poison (800) or darkness (400), and may cast spells intelligently which cause mortal wounds (120), cause critical wounds (80), terrify, blind, confuse, slow, heal-self, create traps, or summon similar monsters; 1 time in 4. She can claw to poison with damage 5d6, claw to poison with damage 5d6, bite to paralyze with damage 5d10, and sting to reduce strength with damage 5d4. (Angband 3.1.2v2)

Wow, I must have imagined all those late night sessions of D&D and then Rifts (sooo ashamed for that). GM's work just like the system here- they create a world with certain rules and structure, usually following guidelines spelled out by a source guide. The story that follows is written by the players and their interaction with the world.

I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that you're a GM and just want to feel as if you were more important than you were. Sorry about that, but it really doesn't matter- having a good GM always makes the game more fun, especially if they're snarky and ambitiously clever, but in the end it's the players and the choices they make that make the game interesting or not.

I go all out and have conversations with diff voices. If you saw me doing it you would probably laugh your head off.

Conversations are hard. Reactivity? Not hard. Obsidian has already proven in New Vegas and other RPG title it made that it isn't hard to implement NPCs reacting to your efforts. Even something as basic as the Courier going into the Lucky 38 is heard across the Mojave and is, in fact, one of the reasons the Courier is contacted by the NCR and later the Legion with work offers. That's reactivity.

I often absentmindedly whisper what I imagine my character's reply would be when, for example, a guard says "No lollygagging" as I pass by. Complete with imitations of the NPCs' voices.

But only because the GM is reactive to those choices. The player's choices are meaningless without the GM describing the results. And that's precisely what we're arguing here. Bethesda does not describe the results, mostly because there aren't any. It would be like a GM saying, "No, you can't do that," or, "Nothing happens when you do that," but the player still pretends that something actually did happen. Pretending something happened when it didn't doesn't change the fact that nothing happened.

Bethesda here is the GM who stubbornly refuses to change directions even when her players clearly want to do something else.

Imagi... what's the word again? Don't know what you're talking about.

Now please tell me what I'm supposed to do next here.

Actually, some of the best RP I've ever seen was on a computer game- NWN. Of course, that game was (hate to say was- still an awesome game!) much different than TES and enabled human interaction like PnP, and will probably never happen again, but anyway... on point, to expect that out of a single player game AI is pretty unreasonable.

There is no interaction with the world if the world dosent react to the players actions. Also the worlds reactions influence the players actions.
Which is why a GM to a huge extend controls the players actions, simply by actions to and reactions of the world towards the players in it.

I wanted to respond, but slyme already did it and worded the response perfectly.

100% absolutely. I cant imagine playing TES simply as a game.. (ie hop from quest to quest, killing everything and anything, fast travelling, not really focused on who I am and why Im doing what Im doing) I would get totally bored, and have done.

I would say most of my enjoyment of all TES games is 10% what Bethesda program in, 90% imagination and writing my own narrative. (including my own fictional guilds, jobs, politics, and NPC dialogue)

TL:DR Roleplaying is where its at.

I know a guy who powered through this game and just maxed out all his stats. IMO that is the biggest waste of your money and the least gratifying experience you can have with TES. It's meant to role play, it's a RPG. Doing that is basically playing Dr. Mario with skills.

How is General Motors relevant when discussing a Bethesda video game? :huh:

Here's an example. At the very beginning, I'm being lead to my execution... What did I do wrong??

Here's what I come up with. My character is originally from Bruma, (for those who are new to TES games, Bruma is a city in Cyrodiil thats heavilly populated by Nords) son of a blacksmith, my family were murdered by a Thalmor agent, I knew it was the Thalmor because alongside my familiy's corpses were the bodies of five Altmer in elven armour, my family died fighting, I found the body of my 12 year old brother still clutching a sword with Elf blood on it, they died fighting, like Nords! I mourn them for their unjust deaths, but I crave revenge, because the Elven bastard that killed them killed them with magic. A witness said he saw an Altmer mage leave my family home in a hurry and head North, towards Skyrim. So I give chase on my horse, and I catch up to him, he's fighting a group of Goblins after a failed ambush. I draw my sword 'Elf bastard! You will pay for the deaths of my kin with your blood!!' I roar, I charge, he uses his magic to launch globes of fire at me. I dodge the first, but the second hits me in the shoulder, the searing pain is unbearable, but the burning is nothing compared to the fire of my rage as my strength and resolve keep me moving, he draws a dagger, I get within range and lunge at him, he tries to parry the first blow with his elven pig sticker, the strength of my arm and sword shatter his pretty weapon's blade, I grab him around the throat and throw my forhead int his face, his beak shatters under my skull, with my foot I kick down at his thigh, his leg snaps in two, he howls like a serving wench and falls to the floor, I look down at him, and speak.

'Hear me, Elf scum! My family who you murdered are now in Sovengarde sharing mead with Ysgramor, my young brother, is there now telling the great warriors how he slay one of your weak kind and laughing about it. But know this, where I am sending you. There will be no laughter, no honour and no celebration. In the name of Talos, I sentance you to death, may you rot under Talos' boot'

I raise my sword and bring it down on the nape of his neck, it cut's through like a hot blade through snow...

I look up at the sky, I know my family await me in Sovengarde, I smile, then all goes black.

I awake, my head searing with pain. I'm on a horse drawn cart being escorted by Imperial soldiers, I sit with other nords, and I hear stories of the Stormcloaks... I await my fate, wondering what is to become of Danric, under-patron of the great clan Thunder-Forged

Definitely find my Skyrim playing experience enhanced by allowing my imagination to supplement the given storylines. For example, last night my Talos worshipping Stormcloak battlemage helped Jarl Ulfric conquer Whiterun. I didn't realize until I played it through how much Jarl Balgruuf had felt like a kind of surrogate father figure, the first authority figure who took my character seriously and believed in him after the events of Helgen. To then have to oppose him, and humble him, really changed my relationship with him, even though none of that was scripted in to the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_master

I explain fast travel as my character being from the future with an implanted ship which provides the ability for 3rd person view as well as vitals to display. =)

As far as NPC interatsion, I sometimes mutter things my character would say in my head. I also do some RP things like walk when an NPC is guiding me instead of running around them in circles. As well as when I fast travel to a town, I will hop on my trusty steed and gallop into town like I had just arrived after a long trip.

It's Doctor Dragonborn and his trusty Tardis. :wink_smile:

Great backstory. That's precisely what actors (proper actors, that is) do to fill in what the scriptwriter/playwright doesn't give you. It makes your character 'real' to you. Keep up that imagination.

Mhm imagination....yeah i know what you mean!
I'm the dragonborn slayer of all! Pillager and bug jar collector!

I roam the streets at night killing of everything in my path! I am the dragonborn!

I....WHAT THE?! Floating mammoths????
Ok ok think quickly! I know!

I roam the streets at night killing of everything in my path! I am the dragonborn!
I slay mammoths whom have been filled with magical gas!
I...WHAT THE?! A horse stuck in the ground with only his ass in the air?

ok ok

I roam the streets at night killing of everything in my path! I am the dragonborn!
I slay mammoths whom have been filled with magical gas!
I break Ass-beast-horses on my way to the tavern!

Cause i'm the dragonbooooorn!

:wink_smile: Yeah, at that point I have to just start metagaming.