I was reading http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1309579-skyrim-is-soulless/ thread which highlighted a reviewer who was accusing Skyrim of having no ‘soul’. As proof of his claim, he recites his experience of clearing bandits from Fort Greymoor and discovering the old cleaner, Agnis who failed to react to the player’s actions.

At first, I found myself mostly agreeing with his comments, but reading on I began to feel that the reviewer was in fact failing to use something which I believe is essential to the role playing genre: Imagination. This got me thinking about how much I personally use my own creative imagination whilst travelling through Skyrim, or indeed any open world video game.

So, with that in mind, I’d be really interested in hearing from other players about how much they utilise their own creative juices as they play. For example, do you find yourself ‘filling in’ the bits that would be next to impossible for the developers to fully create?

Do you, in order to strengthen relationships with NPCs, find yourself muttering dialogue in your mind (or indeed out loud) to companions or wives/husbands, etc?

What about death? When an important character dies, do you find yourself mourning? I remember in Oblivion - after the Battle for Castle Kvatch quest had finished - I carefully placed the cuirass that Savlian Matius gave me outside the city gate as a mark of respect for those who died that night.

Come on, don’t be shy. Tell us how your imagination runs away with you - unless of course it’s just me and I’m as mad as old Maddy McMadd from Madsville, Arizona!


Stannie

I use a 'fair' amount of imagination, I think-- usually, though, it is in the form of reimagining events in the game to suit my character's roleplay (so for example, my last character was an evil warrior/mage figure, so I reimagined the intro to be HIS execution); that then affects how my character interacts and perceives the world itself, but I generally do not imagine too much with NPCs and his interaction with them directly.

I agree OP. Imagination is crucial especially to RPGs. In fact it's my opinion that having a good imagination is vital to a quality existence as a human being. I think people like that reviewer who complain about that sort of thing all the time suffer from a lack of an imagination. It wasn't that long ago that video games were pretty unrealistic and therefore gamers HAD to use their imagination to fill in the blanks. Just like reading a book, really.

Sometimes, when it's appropriate, I'll fill in the gaps. For instance, I imagined the Fort Lady was a little bit crazy, and all she'd ever done was take care of the place. The bandits didn't kill her because she was useful.

I don't care to put much more effort into this kind of thing, though. If an explanation that pops in my head makes sense, I accept it. If not, I move on. Skyrim is huge and there are bound to be mistakes. I said in the other thread: it could have been done better. There's no point in whining about what can't be fixed (or won't be fixed for a long, long time yet), so enjoy the game for what it is.

I use my imagination all the time when I roleplay. It is an essential part of getting immersed in RPGs like this, and as I stated in that thread, I feel like a lot of people are forgetting that because they're distracted by how much the game can do for them these days.

I often imagine complete conversations between my character and the NPC he/she is talking to. Simply put, I don't expect the game to react to everything I do or everything I want it to do. That's impossible and completely unreasonable. It's already so dynamic as it is, that instead of expecting a full on simulation of reality, I'm appreciative of what we have so far in that direction.

Take, for example, an experience I had a couple of days ago. On the surface, it was the most mundane occurrence ever. I saw a Spriggan in the wilderness. It stopped moving and just went through idle animations. I walked away. Boring story. But what happened in my head? I saw a Spriggan in the wilderness. It was a frightening and exciting moment for my character, as she had never seen a Spriggan before in person, though she had heard about them. The Spriggan was running through the wilderness, before stopping and turning in my character's direction. They both locked eyes. My character panicked for a moment, but the Spriggan stared forward at her for a long time. Finally, the Spriggan raised her hand up. My character was unsure if this was a sign of respect or a warning to stay back, but she did not dare risk it, and quickly left the Spriggan in peace.

See? Totally mundane moment where nothing actually happened, but in my head, it was very real, very heart-racing, and in the end, I felt a real connection was made between my character and that Spriggan. It was mutual respect.

Many people equate "suspension of disbelief" with "imagination". In this case you're refering to the former. I can play Skyrim during a poweroutage with my imagination... I can do pretty much anything I want with my imagination. What we need from these people is for them to accept that the game cannot ever be a complete simulation of life in Skyrim and play the game for what it is... a fine game. Of course there will be things that strain a persons ability to suspend their disbelief. Knowing exactly what the Orc up ahead on the road is going to say to you when you pass is an example, as is the ability to still run across the country in a day carrying four full suits of armor. But it's a game and we put up with these things.

Imagination without feedback is meaningless.

If we're talking about PnP, the GM uses her imagination to craft the environment, story, NPC characters, etc. The players use their imaginations when deciding how to interact with that environment. Things like character stats set limits on how successful you might be in interacting with that environment, but rarely will they prevent you from at least attempting interaction. Imagine a GM setting up a scenario where the players raid a dungeon or fort or whatever. They come across some prisoners. They attempt to interact with those prisoners and the GM simply mumbles out some useless phrase. The character the GM is voicing doesn't react at all to what the players are doing. The character serves no purpose. Why was it there in the first place?

This is a failure of GM. It is not the player's responsibility to fill in the gaps a GM leaves scattered about. In this case, Bethesda is the GM. It is their job to craft a story and setting that is reactive to the player's own goals and ideas.

Excellent story, Velorien. Now that's what I'm talking about! Here's a guy who knows how to role play. :foodndrink:

I never thought I was much of a roleplayer until I was getting ready for my character's wedding. My character being a thief/assassin, I scouted the women of Riften for suitable clothes for the ceremony, and ended up breaking into my target's house and stealing her clothes.

I could've just bought clothes from a shop, or better yet not even cared about it, but the fact I went this route made me wonder of the possibilities.

sometimes switching off your imagination can be a good thing too. I wouldn't do the vast majority of quests if i used my imagination. For example, why would i be the one going on errands? Hell, the vast majority of mini quests are an insult to your character when you actually apply any sort of logic to it. Want a mammoth tusk, go get it yourself ya lazy [censored], just like I'm not going to search a whole dungeon for some Jarl and his jumped up wizard that i barely know. You have a whole legion or 2 of guards to go do your skivvy work.


Naw, I'm here for the mead and the woman.

I remember back in Morrowind, a character whom I had a lot of respect for died, (yeah been too many years and I can't remember his name or the circumstance) and so I took his armor and put it on display on a shelf in my house to honor him. It's been like 8 or 9 years and I don't remember, as I said, the exact circumstance, but here 8 years later I still remember the respect I had for that imaginary character

All you have to do is lurk through Reddit and see the story's people are putting up. Then you realise that Skyrim isn't soulless. That's it you causing it to be that way. The immersion you get in Skyrim, is probably one of the best.

I'm not put off by every unrealistic event I encounter
but I do feel that the game is limited in many ways (and sometimes even cripples the game play).
To name a few, dialogue/interaction between friends, spouses, etc/variety of motions/animation are problems I see with skyrim.
I don't think I'm the first to say that what you can do with the marriage feature are bare bone minimum interactions with an npc.
I get that skyrim's concept of marriage does not necessarily mean what it does in a modern perspective due to many different things.
I really do. at the same time, I feel as though what skyrim offers in terms of marriage is svcked dry of any element of romance
(apart from the occasional unnatural "...love" added to the end of almost every sentence during spouse dialogue)
and while I subconsciously fill in the emptiness of marriage with made-up conversations in my mind,
it isn't very entertaining to pretend to care about a pretend marriage in a pretend world. I would like to to some degree actually care about my spouse.
In short, there are certain things that are fun to incorporate my imagination into and things that aren't.
being able to do more with my spouse would definitely help.

this point leads to the lack of motions/animations. I don't know if I'm just missing out on something or if this really is a legitimate observation,
but why is it that only npc's can actually be seen drinking and eating?
It wouldn't be very practical (imo) to have to spend more than a second to consume food or potions during battle,
but if I want to sit down and take some time to eat something, why does one un-seen gulp have to replace the action of eating?
and why can't I sit down on the grass next to some trees or flowers, shake someone's hand or give them a hug?
this all may be a matter of preference but I really do think that the developers could have put in a little more consideration
into the complexity of relationships the gamer can have with the npc's and the environment.

I don't think I need to say that I like the game enough to write out a post like this.
just in case there are people ready to jump on anyone with any sort of complaint.

---
oh and also,
the not being able to place objects on tables properly is just bs.
I'm not going to imagine that my house doesn't look absolutely trashed.
I could pretend for a while that some bandits came in looking for valuables
but I can't pretend to have a neat house when I don't.

I used to when it first came out and I'ld loot a female corpse down to the underwear, But now I don't need to there's a naked mod.. lol



I do now and then depends what type of mood I'm in when playing, If i'm questing then no, I tend to focus on that but if I'm farming or generally getting to know the locals kinda roleplay side then yeah. the game has a lot open to each players game style, although I think the lack of interaction with NPC's does hold it back at times but with the launch of the modders kit soon I'm sure it's only going to get better.

As for no soul, the guy must be blind and lacking imagination.

I hate to repeat a post, but my post in the thread the OP mentions relates directly to this subject:

I think it's all about the player. You get as much out of it as you put in. In the early days of video gaming, we really had to use our imaginations to immerse ourselves in the game world. More so with RPGs. Nowadays, because games have become so sophisticated, too many of us expect the game to imagine for us. Games have become capable of so much that we don't expect to have to use our imaginations anymore. I think when the day comes that games have reached that level of infinite possibility, we'll look back on Skyrim with fond nostalgia on what "the good ol' days" gave us. How sad is that?

I constantly use my imagination when playing. Part of comes from me being an artist, and another from my days playing table-top RPGs. Your imagination is precisely what fills in all the gaps.

Having an imagination is an important aspect while growing up. When I was a kid, I always used to dress up as a wizard and play with my friends, and bring down imaginary foes.
I think that's the best thing about an RPG, or an open world game for that matter,
using your imagination not only to immerse yourself, but to enjoy yourself and having fun.

Be careful of your wording- using your imagination is apparently the lowest form of blasphemy to the tabletop elitists around here. You've already garnered one response already *points up*

It's not a failure of the game to use your roleplaying skills to fill in the gaps to have a more enjoyable experience.

This post pretty much sums up my feelings.

A good roleplaying game (or any game, in fact) will stimulate the player's imagination so that he automatically treats the characters he encounters as real living people, rather than imagining them as real people. It will provide enough foundation for the player to become a part of the world. All it takes is patience and talent.

Take Arcanum for instance. When Virgil suddenly disappeared from my party, I spent half the night (starting at 10 PM, ending at ca. 4 AM) scouring the entire land of Arcanum looking for him, not because he was a strong NPC (he wasn't) or a talented sorceror necessary to my survival, but because he was well written and I formed a bond with him. Even though he was just a bunch of digital ones and zeroes, I treated him like a real person. The moment you have to pretend that your character matters or imagine interactions with NPCs, the game fails to be an RPG.

Yes!<3 i have done that since morrowind.And these complainers sure are gonna say.BAH! thats childish!
but who cares?
and that thread made me sad x/ threads on this site used to make me smile.this thread made me smile again.feeling happy that at least some people feel the same as i do

:shakehead: :facepalm: :banghead: :brokencomputer: :flamethrower:

Ah, there. I feel all better.

:tes: : Skyrim.

Your definition of roleplaying suggests that true role play can only occur within a tightly structured, rigid world within which only one person, the GM, creates the world and the objects with which you can interact.

That's the most boring tabletop game world I can imagine.

Without the players offering their choices and insight, the GM would not have additional material with which to flesh out the world. If the player is just there to interact with the creatures/NPC's the GM creates, what is the point of playing? In your perspective, the players are an afterthought, with the GM being the creative force that drives the story.

That's completely backwards.

The PLAYERS create the story. They create the personalities that drive the choices their characters make. They take the tools given to them by the GM and write what happens. All the GM does is say "Here is the world, the creatures, and the story. What do you want to do?"

And that should be ALL they do.

For me the game does not react enough to what I do, does not give options Id like and if I wanted to imagine reactions I wouldnt play a computer game in the first place.
Imagining the reactions into more then they are in fact wouldnt be a problem on the other hand.

For example I would have liked to aid the Forsworn and get involved with them.
But there is only one situation where you can actually do that and you can only get there by killing lots of Forsworn.
Afterwards every Forsworn exept a few will still attack you on sight and there are no Quests of any kind available exept to kill more Forsworn.
Same with the Necromancers or Queen Potema or Bandits and other things or actually, even worse there.

So I guess it depends on which kind of character you play.
If you play some sort of White or maybe Grey-to-White character that enslaves himself to Skyrims Authoritys, seeks them and does what they order you to do it may be fine.
Otherwise there are just a couple of minor Quests which you cant really know in advance or specific ones for Assassins or Thieves.

Then there are things like Hunting, Mining and Trades which are there but lack an economic system and things to buy to support them.
You could kill 10.000 Deer, cook and use them to craft and sell the outcome and it wouldnt matter.
The world wouldnt change at all and you would be a millionaire with nothing to spend the money on.

The game does give the appearance as if you had lots of possibilities, but does not deliver them most of the time if you want to Roleplay to some extend.
It is possible to enjoy it in other ways though, but then the imbalances in combat and skills come to the surface because they are the main part of the game, that which it caters to,
with every Skill, every Perk and every Quest.

I'm not that much into combat, so roleplaying is a major part of the game for me. In Oblivion, where I had a mod giving me a bedroll, I used to camp out in any beautiful location I found, to enjoy the scenery. And I imagined I was joined by all my characters, from Morrowind as well as Oblivion.

But it's not just imagination. When I first started Skyrim, with a thief character who sneaked most of the time, I was having problems with neck and shoulder pains. I finally realized I was sneaking while I was playing! I would crouch over the keyboard, shoulders hunched, head tucked between my shoulders, trying to breathe as quietly as possible --it's taken me a while to break that habit. :tongue:

yeah i do

Role-playing skills only get you anywhere insofar as the game accommodates them. That's why it is called a role-playing game and not just role-playing. I can role-play someone who is sneaky only insofar as the game allows for it. If there was no sneak ability and I came on the forums here and was all, "You guys need to learn how to use your imaginations," no one would take that seriously. Why does this somehow change when it comes to dialogue or character interaction or quest solutions? Either I can choose different options and methods of completion or I cannot. My ability or inability to pretend like I could doesn't change the fact that I can't.

To put it in a different context: toys. Skyrim's character interaction is like an action figure you might get out of a happy meal at McDonalds. It's still a toy and so you can still play with it, and probably even come up with some okay adventures for this toy to play a part in. But it's got nothing on a fully posable toy with half a dozen optional accessories. The later allows for a much wider range of adventures and it is much better at facilitating those adventures than the former. Whether or not you can arguably have adventures with the former is beside the point. It's still a static hunk of plastic.

You're looking at something that is an obstacle to role-playing and saying, "Well, I managed to overcome that obstacle." But it's still an obstacle, and one that ought not be there.


Players direct the story. The GM still creates it. They ask a question, the GM answers. In the case of Skyrim, players ask a question and the game doesn't hear them.

You're taking something that's uniquely possible in a table top role playing game and applying that to a CRPG. A GM is capable of rewriting the story on the fly specifically because the world is largely imaginative (with the aforementioned stats governing the limits of imagination). A CRPG is not capable of this. It can't rewrite quests after the fact. It has to anticipate what players might want to do and offer them options in those directions.