Jericho was initially a separate location that was eventually merged with New Canaan because of time constraints. But yes, New Canaan is obviously better, and the merging was done reluctantly.



Unreleased, same with Fort Abandon and Circle Junction.



Thing is, the NCR-BoS conflict was not part of the main storyline here, and unlike Bethesda's FO3 you weren't forced to join the BoS. And yes, having a BoS outpost just outside the Core Region and pretty close to the HQ (not further than the Den one in FO2) is a bit different to having them as a major faction across the continent. Van Buren kept them mostly local.



Tell that to the NCR.

What makes you think anyone can compare the gameplay of a game that was never made to a game that was?

The furthest they ever got into development of the original F3 was a ramshackle tech demo, not even an alpha.

I haven't ever read the VB design doc. I played the demo, and liked certain parts of it, but I did not really look forward to it that much. I dunno why exactly.
Then again, when I first looked at Diablo, I thought to myself, "This is cool, but not something I'd ever buy." , I did buy it the next year, and felt silly for not getting it sooner.

Gameplay-wise (minus the unfinished combat), it was close enough (for a demo with place holder art & quests). Story-wise... I never considered it, or knew it at all.

The BOS was [or seemed so to me...] a xenophobic tech cult, and a minor side quest with an even smaller presence in FO2 (and could have been even less so in FO3). They did not create the Power Armor that they had. Tactics doesn't really count IMO ~though it will now, because Bethesda seems to acknowledge some of the major events in it.

I'm not so against the presence of the BOS, as I am, just against recycled factions with major roles in the game. The Enclave were crushed, now they have working virtibird hangars and patrol the wastes ~even if the Enclave were not obliterated by nuclear detonation... Did we really want to return for a second helping of "join the BOS, kill the Enclave baddies, and wipe out the super mutant threat" ~again? Its a patchwork quilt of ideas mined from the first two games, but it eschews the internal logic of the originals and the core game mechanics of the series. All it keeps is the mascot, STAT names, and a loose [unintentional] parody of the setting.

Actually, you're wrong. They've gone much further than just the tech demo. The engine was about 95% done. You could create characters, use skills, perform both ranged and melee combat, save/load games, and travel across maps. A tutorial level was done that would let the designers do all of the above. All areas but one had been designed. About 75% of the dialogues were done and at least 50% of the maps. BIS already had many of the character models and monster models.

It's just that the tech demo is the only thing (aside from the design documents) that was leaked to the public.

Ok, I stand corrected. I wonder if that stuff still exists on some old Interplay HD...

Apart from the B.O.M.B.-001 concept and the final encounter that was to occur there, I thought Presper as the main antagonist was sort of anticlimactic.

So, who has the engine source and the already finished content? Interplay?

Probably Interplay, but they can't do anything with it without Bethesda's permission.

Didn't seem like it was going to be a very good sequel, didn't play well, felt like Dungeon Siege, would have been nice to play anyways.

Its not about 3d but about mechanics, and i just prefer TES style brought on fo3.

And more, i think its better a game to be done by a financially health company than a almost dead one, because if they ever managed to release it, it could be a very bugged and unstable product, as they would strive to keep it ok with reduced budget.

I played NWN and i never see any turn based mechanics on it.

Van Buren wasn't in production for 5 years. That tech demo was the end result of about 5 months of work at the true start of the project and was only ever intended to show the execs something. Execs aren't excited by design documents - they want to SEE stuff.

Van Buren gave you a choice of either turn-based or real-time.



So you're saying that Beth's FO3 is bug-free and stable? Good joke.

Well in the long run then it would have turned out alright if that was the case as New Canaan seemed a lot more interesting place, especially with the whole Mormon setting which would be unique.



I recognize it's not part of the main storyline but it is the backdrop or the setting in which the game takes place and seems like it would be a prominent part of the game, even if optional; a good number of the cities were directly or indirectly been affected by the war, while very few actually were being affected by Prespe.



Why would I need to? The NCR are pretty much the villains in the game.



Funnily enough I thought the same thing about F3; I wasn't planning on getting it at all as I'm not really a fan of post apocalyptic settings, except maybe Terminator future war scenarios, but I liked what I saw and read about and bought it and liked it. So for me it worked out pretty well.

I haven't played VB's demo but have seen some screenshots in the design docs and it looked pretty cool. Again as far as the story I wasn't overtly thrilled at the Presper mad scientist is gonna re-nuke the entire planet to rebuild it in his own idea of utopia but most of the city related stories I think were superb. A few too many raider tribes if you ask me though.



That was never the impression I got from the BoS when I played the games. In fact I found them rather friendly and accepting which was weird because I expected to be treated like some sort of weirdo alien amongst them. Sending me to the Glow felt more like a method of trying to dissuade me from joining which is why he reacted with shock when I accepted. And inside the base everyone was really friendly and willing to more than share info with me. Hell they downright made me feel like one of their own from the moment I exit the elevator. The same with the poor schlob guarding the bunker in the sequel.

I don't really regard Tactics as a model of canon either. What I meant is that if you see F1's good ending for the BoS, it states how they do actually begin to help others with the tech they've collected; even helping form the NCR. In F2 the BoS was all but disbanded, to me it felt because they felt they accomplished their mission and dispersed, but there isn't much info on them there. Since F3 is about 80-90 or so years after F1, I see what Lyons was doing as a natural progression of what the good BoS ending in F1 revealed; they went and started taking the next step and actually began to get involved with those they are helping. In fact it makes less sense to have the West Coasters being back to alienating themselves because it kind off goes against the impression they were giving in F1's ending as Rhombus takes over BoS.

My comment was that I fail to understand where the whole F3 BoS criticism comes from; first the West Coasters are back as being pompous and xenophobic jackasses and Lyons' team is basically fighting against his own machine, showing a deeper conflict within the BoS that highlights how the differing povs of non-involvement and involvement with outsiders is being drawn out. I find that to add a new layer of meat to the BoS as opposed to just having them walk around doing the exact same thing as the West Coasters supposedly do (I say supposedly because above I give my impression of the original games BoS and differes quite a bit from most vets opinions). In fact the most xenophobic quasi-twisted BoS I've seen is the one in Tactics.

The Enclave however made me feel like a puke recruit as I trekked through Navarro. Speaking of which, given that the Navarro Enclave were still alive after the ordeal, I think Interplay themselves left the door open to bring them back had they wanted to; and the Navarro force was pretty sizeable, also weren't there other Enclave forces and outposts across the mainland?

Like the BoS, I think the Enclave showing up was more a natural evolution of F2. I don't find it implaussible for them to have gathered new strength and tried to continue a variation of their plans, though admittedly unoriginal. Storywise that might be interpreted as the link to make F3 a sequel, the fact the Enclave is the returning villain even if there is no association with the previous protagonists. I agree with you however that entrance in the BoS should have been optional, even if the Enclave were the villains. Oh well, I still enjoy the game immensely so what the heck?

That's one hard question. Beth's FO3 has cons (many of them in fact), but I accepted it how it is. We don't know how Van Buren would turned out, it could be a lot worse than current FO3.
For sure we know that main storyline would be better (though that doesn't mean it would be good, if you look clearly, without any fanboyish blur at FO2's main story, it's god awful) and a lot more deep and developed dialogues. I'm pretty much happy how side quests in FO3 turned out, but Van Buren may offer some interesting big subplot.
Also we know that Van Buren was ugly as sin. Almost all 3D RPG's of that time were ugly, look at NWN, but if you take in account Interplay's disastrous financial state, even more horrible 3D abomination may have been spawned. Imo, technical demo pretty much presents final visual state of Van Buren, just with some fx disabled. It would be a lot more visually appealing if it had 2D engine.
The critical point is the stability of final product. Sure, Beth's FO3 is buggy to hell, but bugginess can be at entirely different level. If it was going to be released, I'm sure Interplay would pressure developers, so most likely we'd seen a rushed product. And if you look at Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines you'll see what happens with rushed games, I mean VM:B took couple of patches simply to work and unofficial patch still continue to develop. Bugs aside, Van Buren may have come out horribly unbalanced and bring unfinished feel (example again - KotOR2).
In conclusion, I accepted Beth's FO3 and currently happy with it. I don't really understand people, who idealize Van Buren. It had huge potential, but most likely it would be ruined by rush, lack of financial support and technical issues even if it was released. Maybe Van Buren would be a good game true to it's great predecessors, maybe it would be huge disapointmend and ruined Fallout franchise. But, considering many factors, we may get our desired "Van Buren" in New Vegas. Who knows, we have to wait and see ourselves.

It doesn't. Most of the art in the tech demo were just placeholders. E.g. the power armor model in the demo was just a placeholder, this was the version that was going to be in the final game:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/File:T51b_Van_Buren.jpeg



Not really. Sure, it's being made by some of the VB team, but it will still have FO3's gameplay style and narrow focus on one major town.



How so? Presper and his people aren't exactly "NCR", even though they come from the NCR. Hoover Dam is.

The combat had its roots in a turn based dice system ala Dungeons and Dragons. It ran in real time, but the old spirit was there.




I think what he means is that considering Interplay's financial status, they'd be on a tight budget and operating on a 'get it out fast' system. Under those conditions, the quality of a game goes down the pan.

As for Fallout 3 being stable and bug free? It's pretty stable for me, but I won't say bug free. I've had no major problems, but stuff like rubberbanding, NPCs in hand to hand mode while holding guns, missing NPCs and the odd lazy script are really starting to get on my wick.

That seems a good way to interpret it ~perhaps its how they (Bethesda) were thinking as well. :shrug:
But it is still yet another brotherhood adventure.
Had the BOS been present, but essentially an aloof faction that could [optionally!] be helped out, and become limited allies against a greater threat, I'd have liked it better I think.

New recruits come from where?
What towns and villages would send them their sons and daughters? Eden's broadcasts did seem to imply that the country distrusts the government.
(And why would the Enclave accept them ~as in their view, they are all "mutant scum").

I'd have liked the idea that the Enclave were destroyed that ? century before (along with their leadership), but that a few Enclave bunkers could still be found (abandoned long since, or with a few hold outs that were once in the Enclave, but no longer consider it relevant... and just exploit their access to the base, keeping it as a defensible home).

*I thought there should have been a derelict Enclave base (as a potential PC home), with a broken Virtibird that the PC with maxed out Repair & Science could possibly fix.

I have no complaints, i have if much 3-4 cts over 150 hour playing.



:thumbsup:

Maybe if Van buren was released people now wouldnt hate so much fo3, i mean, if it ended being a rushed crap, so people would be most welcome to fo3; but now it seen that van buren is like the 'lost eden' or eldorado, the ideal place just because it will never be found, so it ends being each own personal dream.

Fortunately big budget doesn't equal good quality.

(It may actually even be a bit unfitting to see people implying that, in a community that is famous for its modders)



Praise the lesser of two evils?
You obviously have extremely low opinion of 'these people'.
Do you really think that people are so void of any capability to judge for themselves?

Ausir, you take my words too literally. Or maybe my english just fails :facepalm:


I meant overall quality of graphics, not design or some particular models.



And here by "desired Van Buren" I meant not gameplay style (which I don't really care about) or particular story. I meant feel of previous games, deep oldschool-style dialogues, originality of characters and lots of irony.

Low budget doesn't equal good quality either

*I have read though, that had Tim Cain had a blank check from Interplay for Fallout 1's development...
Some say they believe he might have fully supported continued play in the game after surviving a dip in the vats.
(which could entail alternate dialog for every situation that follows the conversion to supermutant.)

**Those that can achieve good quality on a shoestring, conceivably could achieve far greater with a larger budget...
[with the obvious pitfall being that if its not their money, unwelcome compromise will quite likely be a forced issue.]

Indeed it doesn't.
Maybe medium budget does?

Nevertheless, fortunately big budget doesn't necessarily (or always, by default, automatically etc.) equal good quality.
Nope, it does not... I can prove it on an etch a sketch



In my first playthrough that was what I thought I'd happen... so I agreed to get dipped...




Very often pressure applied by investors and producers (who have no idea what 'quality' is and just want their money back with interest) is enough to blight a good project.
Happens on cinema all the time. (see what happened with poor Batman about 10 or so years ago - idiotic money-people with idiotic ideas idiotically destroyed the most profitable franchise of that time out of pure idiocy)

Yes, it was planned, but had to be cut because of time constraints.