you think thats bad? I still have some early memories where your internet bill was not only based on how much data you used, but by how far the the information actually traveled (meaning data from a server from the next city over would not cost you nearly as much as from the other side of the nation, or from overseas)

the internet is kind of a necessity in western culture though, whether we like it or not..

heck, in Canada you can't even collect unemployment without it (seriously, not only do you have to sign up online, but you have to fill out a report online every two weeks or they cut you off, there is no option to do it by mail or to a representative at service canada), you can't get credit cards without an active e-mail, and banks are constantly trying to force online banking down our throats. heck, even insurance companies are moving towards only being able to file claims over the net rather than on the phone.
add this to what Canada post is going through atm, and the fact the CRA are changing how we get our tax refunds issued, its very hard to live without some kind of internet..

there was a court case awhile back actually saying that ISPs shouldn't legally be allowed to issue data caps on homes because of how much of a necessity it has become in our culture..


is this good or bad in the long run? whos to say, but saying "but think of those without internet" its sort of their own fault, as there are almost always some options for the internet even in the most rural areas.. be it Dial-up (slow yes, and maybe you may lose phone access while using it, but I remember having no phone use for two day while Windows 95 updated), or even a satellite connection (expensive, and not that fast, buts its still there.. heck, you can get satellite in locations not even linked to a power grid, like a cottage).. its sort of like arguing "the shows only available on HBO? but think of those with no electricity!"




from what some are posting, we can see the root of the problem may not really be whether the disc contains all the data or not, but the fact that in a society that is being pushed ever more into a state where digital communication is a necessity, ISPs can still issue out Datacaps..

servers wont go down on launch because most PC users go digital download and we will beable to preload the game. i expect it to start on australian friday/american thrusday at the earliest

servers wouldn't go down even without pre-loading.. I think some people underestimate just how much stress Steams servers can endure.. I mean, they (normally) don't go down during summer sales, and at that time you have far more people purchasing and games being downloaded/installed than what FO4 will likely cause

All things being even I prefer the physical copy, looks nice on my shelf. It would be even nicer if Bethesda would ship the discs out a few days early so we can install and preload as with the digital versions, with everyones game unlocking at midnight. Just a thought.

This may have been said, but an installation size of 30 gig, as that's the free space they recommend, will most like be compressed, maybe even onto a single dvd.
you don't want data on a Xbox one or ps4 game to be compressed because it would increase the load times if the data had to be uncompressed every time it was accessed by the console, but on a PC just for installation purposes they can use any amount of compression as the disk is a coaster after the install. Decompressing data can be cpu intensive and slow but very high compression is possible.
All that being said it's also possible that you only get a double layer disk with 9.4 gig on it and you have to download the bulk from Steam....

But if had to pick I would say the bulk of the game is on the disk and you just have to download the day 1 patch. But be prepared for a long install if they have managed to put all that data on a DVD. As decompressing it will take time.

And yet Ubisoft reported earlier this year that PC was their second biggest source of profit at 23%, only slightly behind the Playstation 4 which was at 27%, and well ahead of the XBox one, Xbox 360 and Playstation 3.

PC has been on a steady rise for years now.

Also i found some sources of the numbers you quoted earlier. 14% on pc, 59% Xboc360 and 27% PS3, those numbers were based on the "3.4milion units sold in 2 days" but these numbers exclude digital sales. In the age of Steam that is a pretty big deal.

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/88459/skyrim-sales-exceed-34-million-units-in-two-days/

Piracy... I don't like steam, why?:

Skyrim (Pre-Order on DVD). Besides the fact I had to use a work around to install from DVD (which contains all the data) I had a lot of trouble to get Steam itself installed and working

FNV: Legal copy, bought it after skyrim. So Steam was allready installed. Always had Steam running in Offline mode... But...one day...out of the blue...Steam wanted to go online, and FNV won't run without Steam...my cat managed to broke my UTP cable in two pieces.... so I had to use my laptop (wifi) to download a crack to keep playing until I was able to get a new UTP cable....

Yes, and I still order TES en FO games... but they don't make it eassier...

And...why only 1 DVD???? how much does it cost to press a couple more? TES 3 was delivered on 3 CD's ... GTA-V on even more...

This is an extremely stupid decision by Bethesda in my opinion, as the cost of a Bluray disc would be more than a few dual-layer DVDs (9.4 GBs per disc) so those playing on pc get the shaft and have to download the majority of the game. I also can't wrap my head around Pete Hine's response of why pc only gets one 4.7 GB disc of data and the rest must be downloaded...it's because of piracy? Don't be dumb Pete, all it takes is to leave out the executables and dlls and no pirate would be able to do anything until they're downloaded from Steam, problem solved. My indignation isn't as much for me, I don't have a limit to my internet data per month but I know there are plenty with such limitations and that's no fun. There should have been more of an advantage to buying a physical copy than just having something to look at.

Yep, this is funny, especially because all recent games published by Bethesda had multiple discs: Evil WIthin (4 dvds), New Order (4 dvds), Wolfenstein: The Old Blood (4 dvds). And Old Blood was released this spring.

yeah thats because like or hate valve is smart made sure their servers are good by investing the $$$$ in them i get better connection to steam download servers then i do too speedtest.net so...yeah they can take a kicking and keep on ticking.

LWR is right most devs would have given up on PC development long time ago if wasn't for digital sales the fight for sales is alot harder on PC i know people that play games that came out 12 years ago havn't bought a new game since. (cough CSGO Cough)

i don't know anyone on a console thats isn't playing somewhat newer title, you have so many game completing for the dollar on pc versus console which gets discarded every 4 to 8 years for something new.

MS has bin reporting that xbox 360 is finally slowly beginning to die finally.

and...because of piracy, no matter what, it will takes a group of hackers only a week or so to change the exe or dll file to get it work.... and post it with the rest of the date (from somebody who download it legal) on a newsserver. So that can't be the reason...

I bet it'll be cheaper, I bought both Skyrim and New Vegas on DVD and saved quite a bit.

with FO4 in the Netherlands, dutch stores:

key only : 47,-- or more

DVD (with poster ): 45,-- or more (bought it by that same shop for 43 euro a couple of months ago)

not as cheap as my Skyrim preorder in the UK in 2011: 32 euro for the DVD

Heh, I did the same. ￡27 for a preorder, not bad.

￡32.85 at Shopto, ￡39.99 on Steam.

￡35.99 on Amazon UK. And a hefty penalty if the download is larger than my 15gb cap.

And I notice that shipping date is 10th, so I won't get it till 11 or 12th. So no pre loading for me.

With my speed it will probably be another couple of days downloading. Wish I had known all about these huge downloads before buying.

Is Skyrim the same? or are there a number of disks?

One disc for Skyrim, and there was a large patch but it didn't run to more than a GB or two. However, there has since been many more patches since then, and the DLC and high res texture packs, so it's not as if the game is particularly free of downloads.

Move? I bought my house specifically for where it was located, the services available, etc.

I had two weeks to choose my house. I wanted the same city as my brother, he's on the other side of town and has cable. His area's more built up than mine. Hopefully cable will be coming this way soon.

All any game developer or publisher is trying to do with DRM is DELAY pirates. The longer they delay the pirates, the more profit they make. It has been shown that delaying pirate copies of a game by as little as a single week can dramatically increase sales. So piracy is very much a reason. Many pirates are apparently operating with poor impulse control - they pirate the game because it is easy. But if they really want to play the game, they'll find waiting even one week unbearable and will break down and buy it.

The other pirates, the ones that do it because of lack of money, or some other reason, will still pirate it, but they would have anyway, and it isn't really a lost sale. But it is important to delay piracy long enough to grab the purchases from the lazy and poor impulse pirates.

What really irritates me about piracy is the claim that a company lost X millions of dollars due to piracy. If every person that pirated the game was going to buy the game if a pirated version wasn't available, then that claim would be correct. However, there are lots of pirates that would never have bought the game in the first place. So the claim is actually a lot less than what the company has stated. There are even some cases where pirates like the game and bought the game causing the claim to be messed up more.

It's certainly a difficult one to sort out. The real problem is considering how many copies would have been sold if a game hadn't been pirated, and there's no way (as you point out) of answering that precisely.

However, I would argue that the mere fact that in some cases piracy can outstrip sales by a ratio of 4 to 1 (this estimate from CD Projekt RED for the Witcher 2 in the first 6 weeks after launch) does suggest that very, very significant numbers of pirates would buy a game if there were no alternative. Of course, whether copy protection or added value (as favoured by CD Projekt RED) is the way to address the problem is a valid area for debate.

There's also the question of community and society culture, though that's another knotty problem who's solution has evaded... well, everyone, really. And the 'best' approach is very much a matter of personal outlook. Still, I do feel that the more people feel it's perfectly ok to leech off others with no censure or risk of consequence (all pirates are, effectively, leeching off those people who do buy the game, as the game wouldn't exist without paying customers), then the more such parasitic behaviour will be tolerated and seen as normal. And I, personally, feel that's a bad situation to be getting into.

I don't buy the reasoning that DRM is delaying pirates. I would be surprised if the game wasn't pirated on Day 1, or earlier. I'm in the camp that believes that pirates are going to do what they want to do, and DRM only punishes those who buy the game. If someone wants to pirate the game, they're not going to go buy a copy just because it took a cracker an extra day or two to crack the game.

A company is required to have DRM in order to show in court they have taken reasonable precautions to protect their assets if they have assets stolen. Any company that did not include DRM would be risking their entire IP. So it's about much more than piracy. That said, let's not go into discussion of piracy. The last time it came up we lost a few members. Just not worth it to have the discussion.

Okay


Okay, but can I ask this - what about Witcher 3 (and plenty of other games) without DRM on GOG.com? So GOG is not just for "good old games," it's for "good new games" too