Ayleid, please create a separate release thread for your Cats Tie ESp - it'll help alleviate the angst in regards to questions and issues I can't answer.

All this talk about merging with TIE is making me want to try out http://www.invision.tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/files/file/399-tie-frans/. I really love what TIE does to gameplay, but I'm starting to miss a bit of the variety other overhaul mods had. And this seems to perfectly mix T.I.E.'s gameplay changes with Fran's variety. And that's a definite win win in my mind.

Is anybody on here using this combo? If so, how is it? I'd like to know before I potentially ruin my data folder and have to reinstall mods all over again..

OK it will be done.

I only recently installed Arthmoor's Tie n Frans. I don't know what differences I should be seeing. It may not be 3 days yet.
I have found a daedroth in visible distance roaming off-road, down hill from the farm south of Chorrol. I don't know if that sort of spawn is normal or not.

Yeah - it's normal. Bit of a deviation from previous TIE releases - just to up the tension and danger a bit. Upside is that Daedroths are set to not spawn, so if one is killed somewhere, you will not be seeing another one at that spot again.

Hey Veritas,

I have an idea that's been knocking around in my head for a while. It can be done (I think) with vanilla resources plus some scripting, it adds some realism and roleplaying value, and it is relevant to one's thieving experiences - so I thought I'd drop it here and see if you wanted it, since it would make a cool TIE feature if you liked it.

So: Why is that guards can ALWAYS spot stolen goods? It doesn't in general make a lot of sense - unless, I suppose, the stolen items have distinguishing marks. Perhaps that dagger I picked up has a name carved into the handle. Perhaps that ring had a house symbol engraved on it. That magical scroll might have the creator's signature, that book might have a bookplate.

In real life, such marks of ownership can often (not always) be erased, scratched out, modified beyond recognition. Serial numbers can be filed down, old bookplates can be steamed off and new ones glued on. So, it would be nice if the player had a way to do that too. In particular, it's always annoyed me that it's essentially impossible to steal adventuring equipment for yourself; sooner or later, the guards catch up to you, take your stolen gear, and turn you out of the prison without pants on (embarrassing). If it was made sufficiently expensive/difficult to do this, it would not be unbalanced; the player would then only attempt to claim ownership of items that they really cared about, rare items that they wanted to wear, use, and carry. I think I've come up with a reasonably balanced (balanceable?) way to implement this, too.

The fences of the game (and possibly the smiths as well) could sell "jeweler's hammers". These hammers can have a legitimate use, which justifies their sale by smiths: They can be used to reduce jewelery to gold/silver + jewels (easy to do; chance of success based on armorer + luck; failure means either that the hammer breaks or that the gems are ruined) or to turn raw materials into jewelery (considerably harder, again based on armorer + luck; failure breaks the hammer). Their real use, however, is that they can be used to remove the "stolen" status from any equippable item, and perhaps (maybe with more stringent success conditions) from keys as well: one uses them to obliterate any identifying marks on the object in question. The player's ability to do this is without breaking the hammer is based on a roll against armorer + security + luck. These jeweler's hammers can look exactly like repair hammers, but scaled down.

For books, "fine parchment" may be sold. A possible legitimate use of fine parchment is to allow the player to enchant his own scrolls, or to keep a diary; I don't know whether either of these would be easy to implement, but either would justify sale at magic shops, if desired. However, if you have fine parchment, a quill and an inkwell, then you may be able to remove the stolen status from a book, by providing it with a new, generic bookplate. The chance of success could be based on intelligence + security + luck, and any attempt destroys the parchment itself. Alternatively, fences could sell pre-made "forged bookplates", which cost more but always successfully remove the stolen status. These can look like either the vanilla parchment or the vanilla scrolls.

Of course, in both cases, these may be classified as thieving tools, just like gas arrows and lockpicks, in which case they would be sold only by fences and confiscated if you had a run-in with the law; they do not need to have additional "legitimate" functionality. Between the legality status of these tools, their cost, and the chance of successfully using them, they could be balanced to almost any game difficulty or expected cost. Additional constraints could be imposed by causing a brief but powerful stealth debuff on use, or a prohibition on use while trespassing, to prevent the player from abusing these tools while in the act of thieving; also, of course, use on quest items would be prohibited. I also think that this is a feature that would be appropriate to include in an overhaul, since it does affect the global balance of the game where thieving is concerned.

I hope you like (and maybe implement?) my idea! If you like the idea but don't want to script it , I think I can figure out enough to provide at least the very basic functionality as thieving tools that I've suggested here.

Well, I like the ideas - a lot. Like really a lot. However, it is definitely a scripting job, and possibly even a job for OBSE (Oblivion Script Extender). If OBSE is the only possibility, then I'm afraid it'll have to be scrapped, since TIE does not introduce the necessity of any third party utilities. However, if anyone can chime in on this great idea, please do. Personally, I'd also like the idea of being able to steal horses from Bandits (or from cities and towns) and sell them for cash - like virtual horse rustling. Still sounds like OBSE though. Sigh... :unsure2:

I really hate them. One-shot fireball kills at level 5. You have no idea they are attacking you since they don't face you to fire that thing at you.
One of the roaming NPC adventurers came across one, so while the fire was flying back and forth (I think npc had a magical fire sword, poor him), I crept up and was going to range help. The thing fired at me without looking at me and without me doing anything aggressive. I guess I am used to the MMOG aggression rules where the thing doing the most damage/hate would logically be the most threatening.



I seem to remember a mod that removes stolen marks. I had a thought of fences performing laundering of goods. Perhaps after several days stuff you sold to them has the stolen mark removed and you can buy them back.

Actually, in the vanilla game, Fences will launder stolen goods instantly by default - and sell them back to you with all stolen flags removed.

except thats really non-immersive

ITPaladin:

I am looking to try Tie+Frans also. I am downloading the files now and loooking at Arthmoor's readme. My problem is that sometimes I get too literal and not make the assumptions I should.
I understand the ESM tags for Frans but also assume I need to choose the ESPs. And if I BOSS the Frans ESPs, I am hoping that tags do not get added to it as Arthmoor does not mention these.

Or should I assume I just need the ESM friles from Frans and Arthmoors Tie+frans NPC Inventory.esp handles the esp work?

If you have the time, can you post your Frans installation steps? Or better yet, what Frans ESP files do you have? Did BOSS sort the list correctly for you?

Are you asking me? I'm not the person to ask. I simply followed the directions as I saw them, adding the tags to the files mentioned, etc.

What esp files from Frans do you have installed? The ESM files I can understand.

I used the exe, clicking next>next>next, deselecting those items I didn't want.
You really should be asking Arthmoor on installation issues. I am a player, not a modder.

Give yourself some credit, you got it working

I was just looking for a working load order that I can emulate (the TIE and Frans part) that has this install of Frans with TIE.

I never said I got it working. I said I recently installed it and don't know if it is working or not.
I don't know what to look for, and I don't know if it has been 3 days in-game yet since he said to wait that long.
He says in the readme what load order there should be.

Get what you are saying. I think it will be trial and error to see what options from Frans break the TIE experience. If you find anythijng out, do share though

Alright then, I'll take a shot at it. If I get something semi-functional together I'll PM you.




Also, it can be really expensive - in my game setup, it costs about 1.5 - 2.5 times the nominal price of the item, which means that I'd sometimes be better off just buying the goods. :frustration: How's an honest thief adventurer to get by?

Great! Try to see if you work out a way for horse rustling too. Here's what I see:

You venture into a town or city stable and steal a horse. You ride the horse to a drop off point - probably an enclosure of sorts. You get off the horse, and it is understood that payment for the creature is achieved via a "drop" in a sack or small box a day or so later. You don't see who buys the horse, and no one is there to see you drop it off. You simply ride into the enclosure, get off, and close the gate behind you. The next day around the same time or just another arbitrary time, you go to the drop sack and pick up your cash.

This could work for stealing from both Bandits and town/city horses.

Your call. I know it's a tall one, but if it can be done without OBSE, how cool would that be.

you do realise that when you install something like an overhaul, it's best to go to testinghall, and literally wait for 72 hours before you start playing the game? otherwise you're still playing the game with vanilla spawns for 3 days and nothing would have changed.


somehow "honest thief" doesn't make much sense but i get what you mean..those fences shouldn't be subject to the same merchantile affected selling/buying values, coz frankly how can a thief have a good merchantile skill...

Nice !

Brainstorming:

"...but caution while you pick up your cash, because one (or more, depending on your bounty) imperial bounty hunters can appear from a bush..." :hubbahubba:
When a imperial bounty hunter is present = the drop sack is in another (but near) point = more search.
Or = you'll find less gold or 0 gold (corrupted bounty hunter ?)

More chilly pepper in the launch: you can find the first location (the top of a ruined fort ?) for the misterious horse-buyer, inside the book of Anvil lair. The location for sell a second stolen horse is different: you can find the second location inside the first drop sack when you pick up your cash the first time. Same thing for the third place, etc...
But ! : you can find a (fake) letter that can send you inside a trap.

More brainstorming: You steal a horse with a grand value = http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1118112-tie-version-138-tamriel-immersion-experience/the location for sell him is more distant from civilization = more chance to encounter a patroling guard / Ogre / etc.. = more danger.

The top of a ruined fort is a good place: if a imperial bounty hunter take the stairs while you pick up your cash, the best escape-way will be are the horizontal ruined columns in the center (high acrobatic is reccomended = thief rulez :hubbahubba: ). If you have a high bounty in your head, you can find a second imperial bounty hunter near the entrance of the fort (high athletic/speed is reccomended for escape = thief rulez :hubbahubba: :hubbahubba: )

Woah! Lots of ideas there - I really don't think I'll be able to deliver most (if any) of those soon. :blush2: Really, I had literally zero scripting experience before tonight; I sat down with the CS Wiki open and started copying bits out of the tutorials/examples. But I've figured out a lot of things already: I can exclude quest items, prevent you from using a hammer on an item you already own, determine success based on a roll against skills/attributes, break the hammer if you fail, and remove stolen marks if you succeed, all with vanilla CS functions. The main thing I still need to figure out is how to display something similar to the repair menu, with an appropriate selection of items, but I may be able to get that by looking at the script on the original repair hammer in the CS. :rock: I should probably (really) stop messing with this for now, as it's 3 AM my local time and I have much to do (real work) before I can sleep. I'll see if I can get a working version with preliminary testing done before the weekend is over, though.

I killed Glarthir (Skingrad) and an Imperial Bladesman (near Weynon Priory), why this not counted as Murder? also I don't get any DB initialisation message nor my infamy change.

You've got a mod conflict. Not TIE's fault for sure.

are you going to upload this to TES Nexus anytime soon?