Very interesting interview with Chris Avellone

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:48 am

Let's just hope we're not shooting at the radiation with our Gauss Rifles as the "final boss" to Fallout 4. :D
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A Boy called Marilyn
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:23 am

Spoiler
The Beginning

You start out as a prisoner, as you do in every TES game. You're supposedly going to be executed for trying to cross the border; not so much because you did anything wrong, but because you happened to be right near a group of dangerous rebels and the commanding officer of the Legion just doesn't give a [censored] if you were involved or not. Luckily, as you face your execution, a dragon arrives and stirs up so much trouble that you're able to escape with either the help of a rebel or a Legion officer. Both of them will lead you to the town of Riverwood, which agrees to help you and give you a place to sleep, but also asks you to alert the Jarl of Whiterun of the danger, so he can send more guards to defend Riverwood.
You go to the Jarl and he agrees, while simultaneously asking you to help his Court wizard study the dragons. The Court Wizard requests that you go fetch some stone tablet that'll help with his research. As you go there, you discover your first world wall and absorb the words like a freaking dictionary sponge. When you return, a dragon is conveniently attacking a tower near Whiterun. Once it's killed, you absorb his soul like a sponge and everyone calls you Dragonborn. On your way to report to the Jarl, the greybeards, who are LOUD AS HELL, shout from the top of the Throat of the World and say "hey we want you to visit us lol." Once you go there, they tell you that they're sworn to train all Dragonborn in the way of the voice, give you brief training, then send you on a fetch quest. Why? Because apparently all Dragonborn do fetch quests. When you go to do the fetch quest however, the item you seek isn't there, and in it's place, you find a note from "a friend" wanting to meet you.


The Middle

When you go to meet this friend, you find out she's a member of the Blades; a dying organization who was sworn to defend and serve Dragonborns of olden days. When you first meet her, she wants you to kill a dragon to prove you're dragonborn. Why? Because apparently Nords have the memories of friggin' goldfish so everybody forgets major events and thus the news of your battle in Whiterun never reached anyone; infact, everyone simply forgot about it. So, you go to kill a dragon, then she says "wow u did it." Afterwards she theorizes the Thalmor are somehow behind the dragons, since the Thalmor hate humans and....well apparently the dragons are only a threat to humans or something. Iunno. So she comes up with this elaborate plan for you to break into the Thalmor embassy and steal their documents, then once you do and bring them back to her she says "LOL NVM they're as clueless about the dragons as we are, oh well." Then it occurs to her that maybe instead of making baseless accusations, she should have you look for her old comrade. Why? Because he's a super-genius who has a degree in dragonology. Oh and also his life is in danger so you should probably hurry. You find him, rescue him, and sure enough he knows where you might be able to find some clues to explain the return of the dragons. Sure enough, he leads you to a wall of prophecy that depicts the history of the world and some of it's future (conveniently cutting off after Skyrim's point in time, cause yknow, they haven't planned the next games yet), and the future depicts dragonborn being the only thing that can stop the dragons and the end of the world.
Then the old coot tells you there's this special shout that is the key to destroying the dragons. Suddenly it occurs to you that you know some dudes who could probably teach you every shout you could possibly need, so you should stop dikeing around with secret agents and just ask them how to defeat the dragon. Then you return to the Greybeards. The Greybeards tell you they know of the shout you speak of, but don't know it themselves because they believe it to be dangerous. They tell you to climb to the top of the mountain to meet their master, who turns out to be a dragon himself. You ask him if he could teach you the shout, to which he replies "motha [censored]a I'm a god dang dragon and you think I'd learn a shout to kill myself?" He does recommend though that you obtain an Elder Scroll, which would allow you to look through time itself and see the past, where three heroes used the shout you need to defeat Alduin. With that, you could learn it yourself. He tells you to talk to the mages guild cuz mages r smart, and they point you in the direction of an Elder Scroll.



The Ending


Once you obtain it and bring it to the Throat of the World, it allows you to look back in time and witness the battle against Alduin in times of old. You learn the shout, but also learn that their shout didn't actually DESTROY alduin, but simply sent him back in time (to your time, obviously), delaying the end of the world but not stopping it. Alduin apparently somehow knows everything you do, so he shows up and says "wtf how dare you learn that crap!!" and you guys battle. The dragon leader of the Greybeards says "damn man, you didn't defeat him, he just went to regain strength but I dunno where to find him." He then suggest that the only way to find him is to get another loyal dragon of Alduin to betray him and tell you. He suggests provoking a certain dragon by dissing his mother, because this particular dragon hates it when haters be dissin' on his momma and will certainly react. For this though, you'll have to trap him in the dragon temple thingy in Whiterun, and before the Jarl will let you do that, he wants the Civil war guys to agree to a temporary truce. You talk to them, they truce. Yay. Then you trap that dragon. Yay. He's so humiliated by being trapped that he agrees to help you. Yay.
Apparently Alduin has gone to Sovngarde (the afterlife) to feed on souls and regain his strength, and apparently there's a portal to Sovngarde nearby. He takes you there, you fight a bit, then go through.


***This is about the point where the storyline goes completely down the [censored]ter.

You enter Sovngarde and see Alduin feasting on souls. You decide that you'll need to talk to the heroes of Sovngarde about defeating Alduin once and for all. They're in this beer hall called the Hall of Valor, meant for only the most worthy of warriors. You have to prove yourself to it's gatekeeper, then he lets you in.
When you get in, you meet Ysgramor. Ysgramor is a pretty famous character. You hear his name all throughout the game. You hear about how he did this and that in history and was super important for Nordic culture. You also hear that Shor, Ysmir and a couple other major figures should be in the Hall of Valor. So there you are, Ysgramor right in front of you, and what does he talk to you about? "Hey, you should talk to those other guys. Not me." No dialog options, no questions you can ask him, no nothing.

Imagine if you will for a moment, if Lonesome Road were to come out, and instead of Ulysses having all this dialog, holotapes and other stuff revealing who he is, he says literally nothing until you meet him, and then when you meet him he says "you destroyed my home so now I'm going to blow up the world," and then you fight. That's about how disappointing it is to meet Ysgramor, and to find out you WON'T even be meeting Shor or Ysmir, even though they're there.
So after he points you to the other guys (the three warriors who originally defeated Alduin), they say "sure we'll help."

You go outside and get ready to fight, except one of them states "we can't fight him in all this fog, let's clear it out!" The area is covered in fog and you know a shout to clear fog, so all four of you use it. The fog clears, then five seconds later you hear Alduin shout something and the fog returns.
"His voice is strong! We'll need more power!" says one of your comrades. So you yell at the fog again. BTW, the shout to clear fog sounds like "Bakawk," so you all sound like chickens, so that's great too. After a 10 second pause, Alduin does his shout and the fog returns.
"He's weakening, Shout again!" says your comrade. So you shout at the fog again. You're shouting at a [censored] cloud. Then you hear Alduin again, and sure enough, the fog returns.
"There, he's losing power! One more should do it!" your comrade says. You shout at the fog again. This time it doesn't come back. You've defeated the fog.

At this point Alduin shows up to fight. Except, you've already fought him once before, and that was practically one versus one. The first fight was semi-difficult and you had to learn his weakness. Now you have four comrades. He basically lands and starts fighting one of them, then you're free to swing your sword at him and quickly kill him. Really easy. He dies. Then the gatekeeper to the beer hall says "thank you, but you do not belong here. This place is for dead people, so gtfo." If you try to talk to any NPCs to hear reactions from them, they have none. Also the beer hall locked the door on you cause they hate you, so you can't go back in. So there's no point in staying; just leave.

Once you leave, you find yourself on top of the Throat of the World. There's a bunch of dragons there. The dragons basically say "hey you killed Alduin, he was kind of a [censored] so we're really happy. We're gonna fly around in circles to celebrate, yaaaaay." Then they fly around in circles.


....THAT'S THE END.

Nothing else happens. You don't get a reward, dragons still attack you and only two NPCs will react to what you've done. Both of them will basically say "you defeated him? Good job" and then they go on with their lives....And that's it. There's literally nothing more. You spend 5 minutes shouting at a cloud, a handful of people say "good job," then you get on with your life. Again, no reward, no reaction from anybody, no nothing. You do TECHNICALLY get a reward, but it's a shout that's SOOOOOO expensive to use (like if you use it, you can't use another shout (ANY other shout) for the rest of the day, compared to several other useful ones that have like a 30 second cooldown) that you'd never use it.

Like, I don't even know what to say about the ending. It was just horrible.

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/halolz-dot-com-punchout-kinghippololserious.jpg
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Heather Kush
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:40 am

As far as endings go, I'd say it's on par with Fallout 3
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Greg Cavaliere
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:05 pm

As far as endings go, I'd say it's on par with Fallout 3



I think that's an insult to Fallout 3.

Which is pretty sad, considering FO3's ending was copy-pasted. :D
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Dean Ashcroft
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:25 am

As far as endings go, I'd say it's on par with Fallout 3


I'd say it's worse :sadvaultboy: At least you could talk to colonel Autumn...
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Big Homie
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:29 am

The exploration, aesthetics, and detail of the world in Skyrim is amazing. But yeah I do agree that the rest is severely lacking. I miss the choices and consequences from Fallout: New Vegas, especially since it was the last game I played before picking up Skyrim.

I'm afraid that New Vegas is one of the last of it's kind. RPG's are a dying breed and they will soon be replaced by action/adventure games like Skyrim and Fable. People don't want to have to think about choices and consequences in a game, the majority just want to pull the left and right triggers on their controllers and see cool things happen on screen. Games like Mass Effect make me wonder why some game developers don't just create movies instead.

Regardless of it's faults though, I've enjoyed Skyrim for what it is - an action/adventure game. It's not the great RPG experience I was hoping for but it does a few things really well (enough that I have put 250+ hours in the game). I still keep thinking about New Vegas though, and wonder what it would be like to side with the NCR next time, or make other choices throughout the game. It's choices like these that will keep me coming back to New Vegas for years to come whenever I have an itch to play a good RPG. Skyrim on the other hand I will probably turn to whenever I'm in the mood for an open world first person sword fighting game. Disappointing. :sadvaultboy:
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Danielle Brown
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:00 am

Thanks for sharing. That's was awesome.

Cheers
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Greg Swan
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:04 am

Bethesda has always been bad at writing. Why this surprises anyone at this point is beyond me.

If you want a well written FO4 you'd better pray that they hire Obsidian's writing team.

Or just hire Avellone and Sawyer and have them be in charge of writing.
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:21 am

I'm torn because I really liked the (admittedly erroneous) day-after feel of Fallout 3 and the post-apocalyptic western-imperialism theme of FNV. That said, nuking the NCR is a silly idea.

Ok ok. Brace yourself everybody, this spoiler contains the entire plot of Skyrim's main quest:


Spoiler
The Beginning

You start out as a prisoner, as you do in every TES game. You're supposedly going to be executed for trying to cross the border; not so much because you did anything wrong, but because you happened to be right near a group of dangerous rebels and the commanding officer of the Legion just doesn't give a [censored] if you were involved or not. Luckily, as you face your execution, a dragon arrives and stirs up so much trouble that you're able to escape with either the help of a rebel or a Legion officer. Both of them will lead you to the town of Riverwood, which agrees to help you and give you a place to sleep, but also asks you to alert the Jarl of Whiterun of the danger, so he can send more guards to defend Riverwood.
You go to the Jarl and he agrees, while simultaneously asking you to help his Court wizard study the dragons. The Court Wizard requests that you go fetch some stone tablet that'll help with his research. As you go there, you discover your first world wall and absorb the words like a freaking dictionary sponge. When you return, a dragon is conveniently attacking a tower near Whiterun. Once it's killed, you absorb his soul like a sponge and everyone calls you Dragonborn. On your way to report to the Jarl, the greybeards, who are LOUD AS HELL, shout from the top of the Throat of the World and say "hey we want you to visit us lol." Once you go there, they tell you that they're sworn to train all Dragonborn in the way of the voice, give you brief training, then send you on a fetch quest. Why? Because apparently all Dragonborn do fetch quests. When you go to do the fetch quest however, the item you seek isn't there, and in it's place, you find a note from "a friend" wanting to meet you.


The Middle

When you go to meet this friend, you find out she's a member of the Blades; a dying organization who was sworn to defend and serve Dragonborns of olden days. When you first meet her, she wants you to kill a dragon to prove you're dragonborn. Why? Because apparently Nords have the memories of friggin' goldfish so everybody forgets major events and thus the news of your battle in Whiterun never reached anyone; infact, everyone simply forgot about it. So, you go to kill a dragon, then she says "wow u did it." Afterwards she theorizes the Thalmor are somehow behind the dragons, since the Thalmor hate humans and....well apparently the dragons are only a threat to humans or something. Iunno. So she comes up with this elaborate plan for you to break into the Thalmor embassy and steal their documents, then once you do and bring them back to her she says "LOL NVM they're as clueless about the dragons as we are, oh well." Then it occurs to her that maybe instead of making baseless accusations, she should have you look for her old comrade. Why? Because he's a super-genius who has a degree in dragonology. Oh and also his life is in danger so you should probably hurry. You find him, rescue him, and sure enough he knows where you might be able to find some clues to explain the return of the dragons. Sure enough, he leads you to a wall of prophecy that depicts the history of the world and some of it's future (conveniently cutting off after Skyrim's point in time, cause yknow, they haven't planned the next games yet), and the future depicts dragonborn being the only thing that can stop the dragons and the end of the world.
Then the old coot tells you there's this special shout that is the key to destroying the dragons. Suddenly it occurs to you that you know some dudes who could probably teach you every shout you could possibly need, so you should stop dikeing around with secret agents and just ask them how to defeat the dragon. Then you return to the Greybeards. The Greybeards tell you they know of the shout you speak of, but don't know it themselves because they believe it to be dangerous. They tell you to climb to the top of the mountain to meet their master, who turns out to be a dragon himself. You ask him if he could teach you the shout, to which he replies "motha [censored]a I'm a god dang dragon and you think I'd learn a shout to kill myself?" He does recommend though that you obtain an Elder Scroll, which would allow you to look through time itself and see the past, where three heroes used the shout you need to defeat Alduin. With that, you could learn it yourself. He tells you to talk to the mages guild cuz mages r smart, and they point you in the direction of an Elder Scroll.



The Ending


Once you obtain it and bring it to the Throat of the World, it allows you to look back in time and witness the battle against Alduin in times of old. You learn the shout, but also learn that their shout didn't actually DESTROY alduin, but simply sent him back in time (to your time, obviously), delaying the end of the world but not stopping it. Alduin apparently somehow knows everything you do, so he shows up and says "wtf how dare you learn that crap!!" and you guys battle. The dragon leader of the Greybeards says "damn man, you didn't defeat him, he just went to regain strength but I dunno where to find him." He then suggest that the only way to find him is to get another loyal dragon of Alduin to betray him and tell you. He suggests provoking a certain dragon by dissing his mother, because this particular dragon hates it when haters be dissin' on his momma and will certainly react. For this though, you'll have to trap him in the dragon temple thingy in Whiterun, and before the Jarl will let you do that, he wants the Civil war guys to agree to a temporary truce. You talk to them, they truce. Yay. Then you trap that dragon. Yay. He's so humiliated by being trapped that he agrees to help you. Yay.
Apparently Alduin has gone to Sovngarde (the afterlife) to feed on souls and regain his strength, and apparently there's a portal to Sovngarde nearby. He takes you there, you fight a bit, then go through.


***This is about the point where the storyline goes completely down the [censored]ter.

You enter Sovngarde and see Alduin feasting on souls. You decide that you'll need to talk to the heroes of Sovngarde about defeating Alduin once and for all. They're in this beer hall called the Hall of Valor, meant for only the most worthy of warriors. You have to prove yourself to it's gatekeeper, then he lets you in.
When you get in, you meet Ysgramor. Ysgramor is a pretty famous character. You hear his name all throughout the game. You hear about how he did this and that in history and was super important for Nordic culture. You also hear that Shor, Ysmir and a couple other major figures should be in the Hall of Valor. So there you are, Ysgramor right in front of you, and what does he talk to you about? "Hey, you should talk to those other guys. Not me." No dialog options, no questions you can ask him, no nothing.

Imagine if you will for a moment, if Lonesome Road were to come out, and instead of Ulysses having all this dialog, holotapes and other stuff revealing who he is, he says literally nothing until you meet him, and then when you meet him he says "you destroyed my home so now I'm going to blow up the world," and then you fight. That's about how disappointing it is to meet Ysgramor, and to find out you WON'T even be meeting Shor or Ysmir, even though they're there.
So after he points you to the other guys (the three warriors who originally defeated Alduin), they say "sure we'll help."

You go outside and get ready to fight, except one of them states "we can't fight him in all this fog, let's clear it out!" The area is covered in fog and you know a shout to clear fog, so all four of you use it. The fog clears, then five seconds later you hear Alduin shout something and the fog returns.
"His voice is strong! We'll need more power!" says one of your comrades. So you yell at the fog again. BTW, the shout to clear fog sounds like "Bakawk," so you all sound like chickens, so that's great too. After a 10 second pause, Alduin does his shout and the fog returns.
"He's weakening, Shout again!" says your comrade. So you shout at the fog again. You're shouting at a [censored] cloud. Then you hear Alduin again, and sure enough, the fog returns.
"There, he's losing power! One more should do it!" your comrade says. You shout at the fog again. This time it doesn't come back. You've defeated the fog.

At this point Alduin shows up to fight. Except, you've already fought him once before, and that was practically one versus one. The first fight was semi-difficult and you had to learn his weakness. Now you have four comrades. He basically lands and starts fighting one of them, then you're free to swing your sword at him and quickly kill him. Really easy. He dies. Then the gatekeeper to the beer hall says "thank you, but you do not belong here. This place is for dead people, so gtfo." If you try to talk to any NPCs to hear reactions from them, they have none. Also the beer hall locked the door on you cause they hate you, so you can't go back in. So there's no point in staying; just leave.

Once you leave, you find yourself on top of the Throat of the World. There's a bunch of dragons there. The dragons basically say "hey you killed Alduin, he was kind of a [censored] so we're really happy. We're gonna fly around in circles to celebrate, yaaaaay." Then they fly around in circles.


....THAT'S THE END.

Nothing else happens. You don't get a reward, dragons still attack you and only two NPCs will react to what you've done. Both of them will basically say "you defeated him? Good job" and then they go on with their lives....And that's it. There's literally nothing more. You spend 5 minutes shouting at a cloud, a handful of people say "good job," then you get on with your life. Again, no reward, no reaction from anybody, no nothing. You do TECHNICALLY get a reward, but it's a shout that's SOOOOOO expensive to use (like if you use it, you can't use another shout (ANY other shout) for the rest of the day, compared to several other useful ones that have like a 30 second cooldown) that you'd never use it.

Like, I don't even know what to say about the ending. It was just horrible.



Spot-on paraphrasing.
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josie treuberg
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:44 am

I can't help thinking that part of the problem is the way people would be apoplectic if Skyrim had a definitive ending and you couldn't play on after it. Enough people have moaned about New Vegas having a definitive ending and enough people have pointed out you couldn't realistically expect all four of the major outcomes to be reflected in post main quest play. That New Vegas builds to a conclusion where you're seriously changing the game world allows it to have that sense of making real changes. You make smaller changes as you go along - like if your actions lead to the Legion taking over Helios One - but the game is constantly building towards telling you about all the changes you've caused in the Mojave that cause major repercussions for years. You just cannot do this without ending the cgame forever at some point. Stories tell a story and then they end. So aside from Obsidan's greater writing skill generally, they've constructed the game from a philosophy of 'here is a story you can choose to guide in several ways - you choose how it all ends' whereas Bethesda operate from a philosophy of 'here's a big sandbox. Go play in it indefinitely. Find cool stuff and kill things. But nothing will ever really change because you're there doing the same things forever..'
As long as people go crazy at the thought of stories having an ending, Bethesda will never be able to write a truly satisfying main story because you will never be able to make real choices and cause a variety of real changes because of the immense complexity this would present for post main quest play.
And that's assuming they ever get good at writing.
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DeeD
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:55 pm

I can't help thinking that part of the problem is the way people would be apoplectic if Skyrim had a definitive ending and you couldn't play on after it. Enough people have moaned about New Vegas having a definitive ending and enough people have pointed out you couldn't realistically expect all four of the major outcomes to be reflected in post main quest play. That New Vegas builds to a conclusion where you're seriously changing the game world allows it to have that sense of making real changes. You make smaller changes as you go along - like if your actions lead to the Legion taking over Helios One - but the game is constantly building towards telling you about all the changes you've caused in the Mojave that cause major repercussions for years. You just cannot do this without ending the cgame forever at some point. Stories tell a story and then they end. So aside from Obsidan's greater writing skill generally, they've constructed the game from a philosophy of 'here is a story you can choose to guide in several ways - you choose how it all ends' whereas Bethesda operate from a philosophy of 'here's a big sandbox. Go play in it indefinitely. Find cool stuff and kill things. But nothing will ever really change because you're there doing the same things forever..'
As long as people go crazy at the thought of stories having an ending, Bethesda will never be able to write a truly satisfying main story because you will never be able to make real choices and cause a variety of real changes because of the immense complexity this would present for post main quest play.
And that's assuming they ever get good at writing.


You could be onto something, there. Definitive endings do present vast problems and conflicts to devs trying to create a sandbox game that is playable for the long-term, without the player having to choose an ending that actually ends it. Makes for some pretty amorphous and unsatisfying results.
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Laura Elizabeth
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:50 pm

I don't see any conflict between a game ending and being a sandbox game. Want to run around for 800 hours with the same character? Great make a save before you embark on the final quest. From now on all Bethesda games can incorporate the point of no return popup New Vegas put in so people know when they're at the point of no return. Problem solved.
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Laura Tempel
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:05 pm

I don't see any conflict between a game ending and being a sandbox game. Want to run around for 800 hours with the same character? Great make a save before you embark on the final quest. From now on all Bethesda games can incorporate the point of no return popup New Vegas put in so people know when they're at the point of no return. Problem solved.


You are absolutely right.

But - when New Vegas came out, the game clearly warned you you could not go back beyond a certain point and people still complained. They clicked through the pop-up without reading it and then wondered why the game had finished. They had to put in a system save and spoon feed it back to you at the end just to partially placate the howls of anguish. It makes no sense to me - as you say, run round for 800 hours before the final sequence if you like, but some people still don't like that for some inexplicable reason. TES has always been about sandbox play and even if it had the same point of no return warnings, you can guarantee people would be howling it was the worst calamity to hit civilisation since the black death. More pertinently, I'm worried that for Fallout 4 Bethesda will do away with the great ending structure Obsidian built and pander to people who want to stroll around the wasteland forever killing randomly spawning deathclaws over and over again. I think what they should be doing is building towards enhancing the atmosphere of impending crisis - force you to make serious choices that alienate entire factions (like when the NCR declares you a terrorist) and do this even more so than in New Vegas. Have more dialogue that reflects changes you've wrought. Make you feel like what you're doing is really important and is going to have definite consequences that matter and might even backfire on you. To me, that really enhances the immersion of roleplaying and enhances replayability as you want to see how all the different choices can pan out. Obsidian have edged towards some clever stuff that has real potential. Pinning the outcome of how it plays out with a certain NPC when you first meet them (and assume it doesn't really matter what you say) in Dead Money was great. Let's have more of that. Let's see your dialogue choices really mean something and the effect not necessarily be immediately apparent. Let's have carefully thought out consequences in an intelligent game. But it seems virtually certain Bethesda will handle Fallout 4 and if Skyrim is anything to go by, it's likely to be heading back to sacrficing narrative choice in favour of sandbox choice. I really hope I'm dead wrong about that.
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Jade Muggeridge
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:45 am

I can't help thinking that part of the problem is the way people would be apoplectic if Skyrim had a definitive ending and you couldn't play on after it. Enough people have moaned about New Vegas having a definitive ending and enough people have pointed out you couldn't realistically expect all four of the major outcomes to be reflected in post main quest play. That New Vegas builds to a conclusion where you're seriously changing the game world allows it to have that sense of making real changes. You make smaller changes as you go along - like if your actions lead to the Legion taking over Helios One - but the game is constantly building towards telling you about all the changes you've caused in the Mojave that cause major repercussions for years. You just cannot do this without ending the cgame forever at some point. Stories tell a story and then they end. So aside from Obsidan's greater writing skill generally, they've constructed the game from a philosophy of 'here is a story you can choose to guide in several ways - you choose how it all ends' whereas Bethesda operate from a philosophy of 'here's a big sandbox. Go play in it indefinitely. Find cool stuff and kill things. But nothing will ever really change because you're there doing the same things forever..'
As long as people go crazy at the thought of stories having an ending, Bethesda will never be able to write a truly satisfying main story because you will never be able to make real choices and cause a variety of real changes because of the immense complexity this would present for post main quest play.
And that's assuming they ever get good at writing.


Excellent post. I think this pretty much nails the differences between the two styles. In fact, I've always been a bit baffled by any complaints that New Vegas has an ending. Baffled, and a little bit annoyed, since the complaint entirely misses the entire point behind the New Vegas story. The game presents you with a huge message box advising when the point of no return is....don't want the game to end, then just select 'no' and continue playing. Simple enough, if you ask me.

But I think you're basically right - a story, and indeed game world, that has consequences after the main quest do not mix if you are allowed to continue playing. After all, if the game doesn't end, then what has everything up to this point been for? I think doing this with Fallout 3 and Broken Steel made the main quest somewhat pointless. Though Broken Steel provided loads of extra content, it really did the main quest no favours at all.

I recently read an article on this subject http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20111107/8833/Sandboxes_and_the_Rebirth_of_Grinding.php. This guy has written quite a few, often quite critical of Skyrim, although he does recognise its strengths too. Its an interesting article and I know some games that it applies to. I don't think that Skyrim is necessarily one of them, though, but it makes you think.
User avatar
Matthew Barrows
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:24 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:03 am

Ok ok. Brace yourself everybody, this spoiler contains the entire plot of Skyrim's main quest:


Spoiler
The Beginning

You start out as a prisoner, as you do in every TES game. You're supposedly going to be executed for trying to cross the border; not so much because you did anything wrong, but because you happened to be right near a group of dangerous rebels and the commanding officer of the Legion just doesn't give a [censored] if you were involved or not. Luckily, as you face your execution, a dragon arrives and stirs up so much trouble that you're able to escape with either the help of a rebel or a Legion officer. Both of them will lead you to the town of Riverwood, which agrees to help you and give you a place to sleep, but also asks you to alert the Jarl of Whiterun of the danger, so he can send more guards to defend Riverwood.
You go to the Jarl and he agrees, while simultaneously asking you to help his Court wizard study the dragons. The Court Wizard requests that you go fetch some stone tablet that'll help with his research. As you go there, you discover your first world wall and absorb the words like a freaking dictionary sponge. When you return, a dragon is conveniently attacking a tower near Whiterun. Once it's killed, you absorb his soul like a sponge and everyone calls you Dragonborn. On your way to report to the Jarl, the greybeards, who are LOUD AS HELL, shout from the top of the Throat of the World and say "hey we want you to visit us lol." Once you go there, they tell you that they're sworn to train all Dragonborn in the way of the voice, give you brief training, then send you on a fetch quest. Why? Because apparently all Dragonborn do fetch quests. When you go to do the fetch quest however, the item you seek isn't there, and in it's place, you find a note from "a friend" wanting to meet you.


The Middle

When you go to meet this friend, you find out she's a member of the Blades; a dying organization who was sworn to defend and serve Dragonborns of olden days. When you first meet her, she wants you to kill a dragon to prove you're dragonborn. Why? Because apparently Nords have the memories of friggin' goldfish so everybody forgets major events and thus the news of your battle in Whiterun never reached anyone; infact, everyone simply forgot about it. So, you go to kill a dragon, then she says "wow u did it." Afterwards she theorizes the Thalmor are somehow behind the dragons, since the Thalmor hate humans and....well apparently the dragons are only a threat to humans or something. Iunno. So she comes up with this elaborate plan for you to break into the Thalmor embassy and steal their documents, then once you do and bring them back to her she says "LOL NVM they're as clueless about the dragons as we are, oh well." Then it occurs to her that maybe instead of making baseless accusations, she should have you look for her old comrade. Why? Because he's a super-genius who has a degree in dragonology. Oh and also his life is in danger so you should probably hurry. You find him, rescue him, and sure enough he knows where you might be able to find some clues to explain the return of the dragons. Sure enough, he leads you to a wall of prophecy that depicts the history of the world and some of it's future (conveniently cutting off after Skyrim's point in time, cause yknow, they haven't planned the next games yet), and the future depicts dragonborn being the only thing that can stop the dragons and the end of the world.
Then the old coot tells you there's this special shout that is the key to destroying the dragons. Suddenly it occurs to you that you know some dudes who could probably teach you every shout you could possibly need, so you should stop dikeing around with secret agents and just ask them how to defeat the dragon. Then you return to the Greybeards. The Greybeards tell you they know of the shout you speak of, but don't know it themselves because they believe it to be dangerous. They tell you to climb to the top of the mountain to meet their master, who turns out to be a dragon himself. You ask him if he could teach you the shout, to which he replies "motha [censored]a I'm a god dang dragon and you think I'd learn a shout to kill myself?" He does recommend though that you obtain an Elder Scroll, which would allow you to look through time itself and see the past, where three heroes used the shout you need to defeat Alduin. With that, you could learn it yourself. He tells you to talk to the mages guild cuz mages r smart, and they point you in the direction of an Elder Scroll.



The Ending


Once you obtain it and bring it to the Throat of the World, it allows you to look back in time and witness the battle against Alduin in times of old. You learn the shout, but also learn that their shout didn't actually DESTROY alduin, but simply sent him back in time (to your time, obviously), delaying the end of the world but not stopping it. Alduin apparently somehow knows everything you do, so he shows up and says "wtf how dare you learn that crap!!" and you guys battle. The dragon leader of the Greybeards says "damn man, you didn't defeat him, he just went to regain strength but I dunno where to find him." He then suggest that the only way to find him is to get another loyal dragon of Alduin to betray him and tell you. He suggests provoking a certain dragon by dissing his mother, because this particular dragon hates it when haters be dissin' on his momma and will certainly react. For this though, you'll have to trap him in the dragon temple thingy in Whiterun, and before the Jarl will let you do that, he wants the Civil war guys to agree to a temporary truce. You talk to them, they truce. Yay. Then you trap that dragon. Yay. He's so humiliated by being trapped that he agrees to help you. Yay.
Apparently Alduin has gone to Sovngarde (the afterlife) to feed on souls and regain his strength, and apparently there's a portal to Sovngarde nearby. He takes you there, you fight a bit, then go through.


***This is about the point where the storyline goes completely down the [censored]ter.

You enter Sovngarde and see Alduin feasting on souls. You decide that you'll need to talk to the heroes of Sovngarde about defeating Alduin once and for all. They're in this beer hall called the Hall of Valor, meant for only the most worthy of warriors. You have to prove yourself to it's gatekeeper, then he lets you in.
When you get in, you meet Ysgramor. Ysgramor is a pretty famous character. You hear his name all throughout the game. You hear about how he did this and that in history and was super important for Nordic culture. You also hear that Shor, Ysmir and a couple other major figures should be in the Hall of Valor. So there you are, Ysgramor right in front of you, and what does he talk to you about? "Hey, you should talk to those other guys. Not me." No dialog options, no questions you can ask him, no nothing.

Imagine if you will for a moment, if Lonesome Road were to come out, and instead of Ulysses having all this dialog, holotapes and other stuff revealing who he is, he says literally nothing until you meet him, and then when you meet him he says "you destroyed my home so now I'm going to blow up the world," and then you fight. That's about how disappointing it is to meet Ysgramor, and to find out you WON'T even be meeting Shor or Ysmir, even though they're there.
So after he points you to the other guys (the three warriors who originally defeated Alduin), they say "sure we'll help."

You go outside and get ready to fight, except one of them states "we can't fight him in all this fog, let's clear it out!" The area is covered in fog and you know a shout to clear fog, so all four of you use it. The fog clears, then five seconds later you hear Alduin shout something and the fog returns.
"His voice is strong! We'll need more power!" says one of your comrades. So you yell at the fog again. BTW, the shout to clear fog sounds like "Bakawk," so you all sound like chickens, so that's great too. After a 10 second pause, Alduin does his shout and the fog returns.
"He's weakening, Shout again!" says your comrade. So you shout at the fog again. You're shouting at a [censored] cloud. Then you hear Alduin again, and sure enough, the fog returns.
"There, he's losing power! One more should do it!" your comrade says. You shout at the fog again. This time it doesn't come back. You've defeated the fog.

At this point Alduin shows up to fight. Except, you've already fought him once before, and that was practically one versus one. The first fight was semi-difficult and you had to learn his weakness. Now you have four comrades. He basically lands and starts fighting one of them, then you're free to swing your sword at him and quickly kill him. Really easy. He dies. Then the gatekeeper to the beer hall says "thank you, but you do not belong here. This place is for dead people, so gtfo." If you try to talk to any NPCs to hear reactions from them, they have none. Also the beer hall locked the door on you cause they hate you, so you can't go back in. So there's no point in staying; just leave.

Once you leave, you find yourself on top of the Throat of the World. There's a bunch of dragons there. The dragons basically say "hey you killed Alduin, he was kind of a [censored] so we're really happy. We're gonna fly around in circles to celebrate, yaaaaay." Then they fly around in circles.


....THAT'S THE END.

Nothing else happens. You don't get a reward, dragons still attack you and only two NPCs will react to what you've done. Both of them will basically say "you defeated him? Good job" and then they go on with their lives....And that's it. There's literally nothing more. You spend 5 minutes shouting at a cloud, a handful of people say "good job," then you get on with your life. Again, no reward, no reaction from anybody, no nothing. You do TECHNICALLY get a reward, but it's a shout that's SOOOOOO expensive to use (like if you use it, you can't use another shout (ANY other shout) for the rest of the day, compared to several other useful ones that have like a 30 second cooldown) that you'd never use it.

Like, I don't even know what to say about the ending. It was just horrible.



I LMAOed at the ending fight.Do you really
Spoiler
scream at a cloud for 5 minutes like a chicken?

Thanks for making me have a good time.
User avatar
Lance Vannortwick
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:30 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:29 am

Ok ok. Brace yourself everybody, this spoiler contains the entire plot of Skyrim's main quest:


Spoiler
The Beginning

You start out as a prisoner, as you do in every TES game. You're supposedly going to be executed for trying to cross the border; not so much because you did anything wrong, but because you happened to be right near a group of dangerous rebels and the commanding officer of the Legion just doesn't give a [censored] if you were involved or not. Luckily, as you face your execution, a dragon arrives and stirs up so much trouble that you're able to escape with either the help of a rebel or a Legion officer. Both of them will lead you to the town of Riverwood, which agrees to help you and give you a place to sleep, but also asks you to alert the Jarl of Whiterun of the danger, so he can send more guards to defend Riverwood.
You go to the Jarl and he agrees, while simultaneously asking you to help his Court wizard study the dragons. The Court Wizard requests that you go fetch some stone tablet that'll help with his research. As you go there, you discover your first world wall and absorb the words like a freaking dictionary sponge. When you return, a dragon is conveniently attacking a tower near Whiterun. Once it's killed, you absorb his soul like a sponge and everyone calls you Dragonborn. On your way to report to the Jarl, the greybeards, who are LOUD AS HELL, shout from the top of the Throat of the World and say "hey we want you to visit us lol." Once you go there, they tell you that they're sworn to train all Dragonborn in the way of the voice, give you brief training, then send you on a fetch quest. Why? Because apparently all Dragonborn do fetch quests. When you go to do the fetch quest however, the item you seek isn't there, and in it's place, you find a note from "a friend" wanting to meet you.


The Middle

When you go to meet this friend, you find out she's a member of the Blades; a dying organization who was sworn to defend and serve Dragonborns of olden days. When you first meet her, she wants you to kill a dragon to prove you're dragonborn. Why? Because apparently Nords have the memories of friggin' goldfish so everybody forgets major events and thus the news of your battle in Whiterun never reached anyone; infact, everyone simply forgot about it. So, you go to kill a dragon, then she says "wow u did it." Afterwards she theorizes the Thalmor are somehow behind the dragons, since the Thalmor hate humans and....well apparently the dragons are only a threat to humans or something. Iunno. So she comes up with this elaborate plan for you to break into the Thalmor embassy and steal their documents, then once you do and bring them back to her she says "LOL NVM they're as clueless about the dragons as we are, oh well." Then it occurs to her that maybe instead of making baseless accusations, she should have you look for her old comrade. Why? Because he's a super-genius who has a degree in dragonology. Oh and also his life is in danger so you should probably hurry. You find him, rescue him, and sure enough he knows where you might be able to find some clues to explain the return of the dragons. Sure enough, he leads you to a wall of prophecy that depicts the history of the world and some of it's future (conveniently cutting off after Skyrim's point in time, cause yknow, they haven't planned the next games yet), and the future depicts dragonborn being the only thing that can stop the dragons and the end of the world.
Then the old coot tells you there's this special shout that is the key to destroying the dragons. Suddenly it occurs to you that you know some dudes who could probably teach you every shout you could possibly need, so you should stop dikeing around with secret agents and just ask them how to defeat the dragon. Then you return to the Greybeards. The Greybeards tell you they know of the shout you speak of, but don't know it themselves because they believe it to be dangerous. They tell you to climb to the top of the mountain to meet their master, who turns out to be a dragon himself. You ask him if he could teach you the shout, to which he replies "motha [censored]a I'm a god dang dragon and you think I'd learn a shout to kill myself?" He does recommend though that you obtain an Elder Scroll, which would allow you to look through time itself and see the past, where three heroes used the shout you need to defeat Alduin. With that, you could learn it yourself. He tells you to talk to the mages guild cuz mages r smart, and they point you in the direction of an Elder Scroll.



The Ending


Once you obtain it and bring it to the Throat of the World, it allows you to look back in time and witness the battle against Alduin in times of old. You learn the shout, but also learn that their shout didn't actually DESTROY alduin, but simply sent him back in time (to your time, obviously), delaying the end of the world but not stopping it. Alduin apparently somehow knows everything you do, so he shows up and says "wtf how dare you learn that crap!!" and you guys battle. The dragon leader of the Greybeards says "damn man, you didn't defeat him, he just went to regain strength but I dunno where to find him." He then suggest that the only way to find him is to get another loyal dragon of Alduin to betray him and tell you. He suggests provoking a certain dragon by dissing his mother, because this particular dragon hates it when haters be dissin' on his momma and will certainly react. For this though, you'll have to trap him in the dragon temple thingy in Whiterun, and before the Jarl will let you do that, he wants the Civil war guys to agree to a temporary truce. You talk to them, they truce. Yay. Then you trap that dragon. Yay. He's so humiliated by being trapped that he agrees to help you. Yay.
Apparently Alduin has gone to Sovngarde (the afterlife) to feed on souls and regain his strength, and apparently there's a portal to Sovngarde nearby. He takes you there, you fight a bit, then go through.


***This is about the point where the storyline goes completely down the [censored]ter.

You enter Sovngarde and see Alduin feasting on souls. You decide that you'll need to talk to the heroes of Sovngarde about defeating Alduin once and for all. They're in this beer hall called the Hall of Valor, meant for only the most worthy of warriors. You have to prove yourself to it's gatekeeper, then he lets you in.
When you get in, you meet Ysgramor. Ysgramor is a pretty famous character. You hear his name all throughout the game. You hear about how he did this and that in history and was super important for Nordic culture. You also hear that Shor, Ysmir and a couple other major figures should be in the Hall of Valor. So there you are, Ysgramor right in front of you, and what does he talk to you about? "Hey, you should talk to those other guys. Not me." No dialog options, no questions you can ask him, no nothing.

Imagine if you will for a moment, if Lonesome Road were to come out, and instead of Ulysses having all this dialog, holotapes and other stuff revealing who he is, he says literally nothing until you meet him, and then when you meet him he says "you destroyed my home so now I'm going to blow up the world," and then you fight. That's about how disappointing it is to meet Ysgramor, and to find out you WON'T even be meeting Shor or Ysmir, even though they're there.
So after he points you to the other guys (the three warriors who originally defeated Alduin), they say "sure we'll help."

You go outside and get ready to fight, except one of them states "we can't fight him in all this fog, let's clear it out!" The area is covered in fog and you know a shout to clear fog, so all four of you use it. The fog clears, then five seconds later you hear Alduin shout something and the fog returns.
"His voice is strong! We'll need more power!" says one of your comrades. So you yell at the fog again. BTW, the shout to clear fog sounds like "Bakawk," so you all sound like chickens, so that's great too. After a 10 second pause, Alduin does his shout and the fog returns.
"He's weakening, Shout again!" says your comrade. So you shout at the fog again. You're shouting at a [censored] cloud. Then you hear Alduin again, and sure enough, the fog returns.
"There, he's losing power! One more should do it!" your comrade says. You shout at the fog again. This time it doesn't come back. You've defeated the fog.

At this point Alduin shows up to fight. Except, you've already fought him once before, and that was practically one versus one. The first fight was semi-difficult and you had to learn his weakness. Now you have four comrades. He basically lands and starts fighting one of them, then you're free to swing your sword at him and quickly kill him. Really easy. He dies. Then the gatekeeper to the beer hall says "thank you, but you do not belong here. This place is for dead people, so gtfo." If you try to talk to any NPCs to hear reactions from them, they have none. Also the beer hall locked the door on you cause they hate you, so you can't go back in. So there's no point in staying; just leave.

Once you leave, you find yourself on top of the Throat of the World. There's a bunch of dragons there. The dragons basically say "hey you killed Alduin, he was kind of a [censored] so we're really happy. We're gonna fly around in circles to celebrate, yaaaaay." Then they fly around in circles.


....THAT'S THE END.

Nothing else happens. You don't get a reward, dragons still attack you and only two NPCs will react to what you've done. Both of them will basically say "you defeated him? Good job" and then they go on with their lives....And that's it. There's literally nothing more. You spend 5 minutes shouting at a cloud, a handful of people say "good job," then you get on with your life. Again, no reward, no reaction from anybody, no nothing. You do TECHNICALLY get a reward, but it's a shout that's SOOOOOO expensive to use (like if you use it, you can't use another shout (ANY other shout) for the rest of the day, compared to several other useful ones that have like a 30 second cooldown) that you'd never use it.

Like, I don't even know what to say about the ending. It was just horrible.



Meh, sounds better than Oblivion's main quest. :shrug:
User avatar
Nichola Haynes
 
Posts: 3457
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:54 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:58 am

I LMAOed at the ending fight.Do you really
Spoiler
scream at a cloud for 5 minutes like a chicken?

Thanks for making me have a good time.


You have to do it four or five times...
User avatar
Lucie H
 
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:46 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:10 am

Excellent post. I think this pretty much nails the differences between the two styles. In fact, I've always been a bit baffled by any complaints that New Vegas has an ending. Baffled, and a little bit annoyed, since the complaint entirely misses the entire point behind the New Vegas story. The game presents you with a huge message box advising when the point of no return is....don't want the game to end, then just select 'no' and continue playing. Simple enough, if you ask me.

But I think you're basically right - a story, and indeed game world, that has consequences after the main quest do not mix if you are allowed to continue playing. After all, if the game doesn't end, then what has everything up to this point been for? I think doing this with Fallout 3 and Broken Steel made the main quest somewhat pointless. Though Broken Steel provided loads of extra content, it really did the main quest no favours at all.

I recently read an article on this subject http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20111107/8833/Sandboxes_and_the_Rebirth_of_Grinding.php. This guy has written quite a few, often quite critical of Skyrim, although he does recognise its strengths too. Its an interesting article and I know some games that it applies to. I don't think that Skyrim is necessarily one of them, though, but it makes you think.


That's a very interesting article. Thanks for posting.

I share your bafflement.
User avatar
Cesar Gomez
 
Posts: 3344
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:06 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:14 am

Bethesda has always been bad at writing. Why this surprises anyone at this point is beyond me.

If you want a well written FO4 you'd better pray that they hire Obsidian's writing team.


I wouldn't say that, both Daggerfall and Morrowind showed a lot of potential in this regard, Bethesda really developed the TES world with these games and while their storylines weren't particularly engaging the rest of the writing had substance - especially Morrowind which is probably the closest Bethesda has ever come to delivering writing that is both solid and deep. No Daggerfall and Morrowind don't have anything on masterpieces like Planescape: Torment, but they are examples of good writing and of the promise Bethesda held at one time. I have no idea what happened.

Meh, sounds better than Oblivion's main quest. :shrug:


True, but it's not like that's a particularly high standard.
User avatar
X(S.a.R.a.H)X
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:38 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:54 am

Meh, sounds better than Oblivion's main quest. :shrug:


Oblivion's main quest wasn't great but at least there was a clear sense of accomplishment and people actually acknowledged what you did. And besides, Shivering Isles made up for it with what I think was a fantastic MQ.
User avatar
Campbell
 
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:54 am

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:05 pm

Oblivion's main quest wasn't great but at least there was a clear sense of accomplishment and people actually acknowledged what you did. And besides, Shivering Isles made up for it with what I think was a fantastic MQ.

Shivering Isles was made up for the entire game and then some! That was the best DLC I've ever played ever ever ever!
User avatar
Charles Weber
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:14 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:40 pm

Shivering Isles was made up for the entire game and then some! That was the best DLC I've ever played ever ever ever!


This, it seems Bethesda always ends up making one or two (The Pitt and Point Lookout) really good DLCs (I know the Shivering Isles is technically an expansion) that are just all around perfect and make up for the issues the game had, even though they make the same issues in the sequel.
User avatar
BRIANNA
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:51 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:36 am

Obsidian made New Vegas a much better game than Bethesda made FO3. Why? Because FO3 is black and white and practically forces you to join the BoS and help them.

New Vegas will be my favorite single-player RPG for a long time. Skyrim didn't even come CLOSE.
User avatar
kat no x
 
Posts: 3247
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:39 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:50 pm

Ok ok. Brace yourself everybody, this spoiler contains the entire plot of Skyrim's main quest:


Spoiler
The Beginning

You start out as a prisoner, as you do in every TES game. You're supposedly going to be executed for trying to cross the border; not so much because you did anything wrong, but because you happened to be right near a group of dangerous rebels and the commanding officer of the Legion just doesn't give a [censored] if you were involved or not. Luckily, as you face your execution, a dragon arrives and stirs up so much trouble that you're able to escape with either the help of a rebel or a Legion officer. Both of them will lead you to the town of Riverwood, which agrees to help you and give you a place to sleep, but also asks you to alert the Jarl of Whiterun of the danger, so he can send more guards to defend Riverwood.
You go to the Jarl and he agrees, while simultaneously asking you to help his Court wizard study the dragons. The Court Wizard requests that you go fetch some stone tablet that'll help with his research. As you go there, you discover your first world wall and absorb the words like a freaking dictionary sponge. When you return, a dragon is conveniently attacking a tower near Whiterun. Once it's killed, you absorb his soul like a sponge and everyone calls you Dragonborn. On your way to report to the Jarl, the greybeards, who are LOUD AS HELL, shout from the top of the Throat of the World and say "hey we want you to visit us lol." Once you go there, they tell you that they're sworn to train all Dragonborn in the way of the voice, give you brief training, then send you on a fetch quest. Why? Because apparently all Dragonborn do fetch quests. When you go to do the fetch quest however, the item you seek isn't there, and in it's place, you find a note from "a friend" wanting to meet you.


The Middle

When you go to meet this friend, you find out she's a member of the Blades; a dying organization who was sworn to defend and serve Dragonborns of olden days. When you first meet her, she wants you to kill a dragon to prove you're dragonborn. Why? Because apparently Nords have the memories of friggin' goldfish so everybody forgets major events and thus the news of your battle in Whiterun never reached anyone; infact, everyone simply forgot about it. So, you go to kill a dragon, then she says "wow u did it." Afterwards she theorizes the Thalmor are somehow behind the dragons, since the Thalmor hate humans and....well apparently the dragons are only a threat to humans or something. Iunno. So she comes up with this elaborate plan for you to break into the Thalmor embassy and steal their documents, then once you do and bring them back to her she says "LOL NVM they're as clueless about the dragons as we are, oh well." Then it occurs to her that maybe instead of making baseless accusations, she should have you look for her old comrade. Why? Because he's a super-genius who has a degree in dragonology. Oh and also his life is in danger so you should probably hurry. You find him, rescue him, and sure enough he knows where you might be able to find some clues to explain the return of the dragons. Sure enough, he leads you to a wall of prophecy that depicts the history of the world and some of it's future (conveniently cutting off after Skyrim's point in time, cause yknow, they haven't planned the next games yet), and the future depicts dragonborn being the only thing that can stop the dragons and the end of the world.
Then the old coot tells you there's this special shout that is the key to destroying the dragons. Suddenly it occurs to you that you know some dudes who could probably teach you every shout you could possibly need, so you should stop dikeing around with secret agents and just ask them how to defeat the dragon. Then you return to the Greybeards. The Greybeards tell you they know of the shout you speak of, but don't know it themselves because they believe it to be dangerous. They tell you to climb to the top of the mountain to meet their master, who turns out to be a dragon himself. You ask him if he could teach you the shout, to which he replies "motha [censored]a I'm a god dang dragon and you think I'd learn a shout to kill myself?" He does recommend though that you obtain an Elder Scroll, which would allow you to look through time itself and see the past, where three heroes used the shout you need to defeat Alduin. With that, you could learn it yourself. He tells you to talk to the mages guild cuz mages r smart, and they point you in the direction of an Elder Scroll.



The Ending


Once you obtain it and bring it to the Throat of the World, it allows you to look back in time and witness the battle against Alduin in times of old. You learn the shout, but also learn that their shout didn't actually DESTROY alduin, but simply sent him back in time (to your time, obviously), delaying the end of the world but not stopping it. Alduin apparently somehow knows everything you do, so he shows up and says "wtf how dare you learn that crap!!" and you guys battle. The dragon leader of the Greybeards says "damn man, you didn't defeat him, he just went to regain strength but I dunno where to find him." He then suggest that the only way to find him is to get another loyal dragon of Alduin to betray him and tell you. He suggests provoking a certain dragon by dissing his mother, because this particular dragon hates it when haters be dissin' on his momma and will certainly react. For this though, you'll have to trap him in the dragon temple thingy in Whiterun, and before the Jarl will let you do that, he wants the Civil war guys to agree to a temporary truce. You talk to them, they truce. Yay. Then you trap that dragon. Yay. He's so humiliated by being trapped that he agrees to help you. Yay.
Apparently Alduin has gone to Sovngarde (the afterlife) to feed on souls and regain his strength, and apparently there's a portal to Sovngarde nearby. He takes you there, you fight a bit, then go through.


***This is about the point where the storyline goes completely down the [censored]ter.

You enter Sovngarde and see Alduin feasting on souls. You decide that you'll need to talk to the heroes of Sovngarde about defeating Alduin once and for all. They're in this beer hall called the Hall of Valor, meant for only the most worthy of warriors. You have to prove yourself to it's gatekeeper, then he lets you in.
When you get in, you meet Ysgramor. Ysgramor is a pretty famous character. You hear his name all throughout the game. You hear about how he did this and that in history and was super important for Nordic culture. You also hear that Shor, Ysmir and a couple other major figures should be in the Hall of Valor. So there you are, Ysgramor right in front of you, and what does he talk to you about? "Hey, you should talk to those other guys. Not me." No dialog options, no questions you can ask him, no nothing.

Imagine if you will for a moment, if Lonesome Road were to come out, and instead of Ulysses having all this dialog, holotapes and other stuff revealing who he is, he says literally nothing until you meet him, and then when you meet him he says "you destroyed my home so now I'm going to blow up the world," and then you fight. That's about how disappointing it is to meet Ysgramor, and to find out you WON'T even be meeting Shor or Ysmir, even though they're there.
So after he points you to the other guys (the three warriors who originally defeated Alduin), they say "sure we'll help."

You go outside and get ready to fight, except one of them states "we can't fight him in all this fog, let's clear it out!" The area is covered in fog and you know a shout to clear fog, so all four of you use it. The fog clears, then five seconds later you hear Alduin shout something and the fog returns.
"His voice is strong! We'll need more power!" says one of your comrades. So you yell at the fog again. BTW, the shout to clear fog sounds like "Bakawk," so you all sound like chickens, so that's great too. After a 10 second pause, Alduin does his shout and the fog returns.
"He's weakening, Shout again!" says your comrade. So you shout at the fog again. You're shouting at a [censored] cloud. Then you hear Alduin again, and sure enough, the fog returns.
"There, he's losing power! One more should do it!" your comrade says. You shout at the fog again. This time it doesn't come back. You've defeated the fog.

At this point Alduin shows up to fight. Except, you've already fought him once before, and that was practically one versus one. The first fight was semi-difficult and you had to learn his weakness. Now you have four comrades. He basically lands and starts fighting one of them, then you're free to swing your sword at him and quickly kill him. Really easy. He dies. Then the gatekeeper to the beer hall says "thank you, but you do not belong here. This place is for dead people, so gtfo." If you try to talk to any NPCs to hear reactions from them, they have none. Also the beer hall locked the door on you cause they hate you, so you can't go back in. So there's no point in staying; just leave.

Once you leave, you find yourself on top of the Throat of the World. There's a bunch of dragons there. The dragons basically say "hey you killed Alduin, he was kind of a [censored] so we're really happy. We're gonna fly around in circles to celebrate, yaaaaay." Then they fly around in circles.


....THAT'S THE END.

Nothing else happens. You don't get a reward, dragons still attack you and only two NPCs will react to what you've done. Both of them will basically say "you defeated him? Good job" and then they go on with their lives....And that's it. There's literally nothing more. You spend 5 minutes shouting at a cloud, a handful of people say "good job," then you get on with your life. Again, no reward, no reaction from anybody, no nothing. You do TECHNICALLY get a reward, but it's a shout that's SOOOOOO expensive to use (like if you use it, you can't use another shout (ANY other shout) for the rest of the day, compared to several other useful ones that have like a 30 second cooldown) that you'd never use it.

Like, I don't even know what to say about the ending. It was just horrible.



That was so funny. :laugh:

I finished the main quest last night. I never intended to, I was saving it until the weekend. But once you start the World Eater's Eyrie quest, you're kind of locked in until the end. It was all over rather quickly, and was a bit underwhelming to say the least. Sovngarde was beautiful as a location, but I agree the ending seemed a bit silly.
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Jodie Bardgett
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:22 pm

A. I do like how Josh Sawyer reworked Joshua Graham as this fallen angel with conflictive personalities (One side a devout Mormon, the other struggling with his inner brutality and depraved ruthlessness), had he been a cliche 'HURR DURR I EVOL LOLOLOLOLOL!111!!1' character like others wanted him to remain as from Van Buren, the DLC wouldnt have appealed much because an evil cliche is such a simple minded thing, the Joshua Graham is a more complexly hooked character with a more human and relatable personality.


Instead he turned into a "Brutal man tries to make amends for his past life but is struggling getting over his dark passenger" cliché.
Not much better in my opinion.
I'd have preferred it if Joshua Graham would have stayed the same, Hanged Man, while the character for Honest Hearts was some new character.

I loathe their design decision to completely destroy the Hanged Man.
Was it even necessary?
Why couldn't they just have created a separate character for Honest Hearts?

Even if Graham became "lulz evulh!", why change him?
So that he could have "more character"?
Why couldn't the new character have been that "deep" character while the true Graham stayed his one-dimensional self?
I was way more intruiged with the Hanged Man than I was with the Burned Man.
Why? Just because he's so deeply psychotic.
To have a walking time-bomb as a companion, ready to [censored] any plans you may have had.
He was designed to be a monster to fear, something so brutal, psychotic and twisted that anyone that sees him [censored] their pants.
But not only is he a monster to fear. He's your monster.

That's what I liked about him.
Someone who is a boss, someone who could take you out, but chooses for some reason to follow you.
Try to get rid of him though and, well, he's not gonna take it lightly

Instead we got some monster turned good with inner conflicts between his two life choices, the dark lust, and the pure innocense.
Boring I say.
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