Victim of it's Own Success? : V - Skyrim

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:47 pm

What it is....a boring game. After all the hype has died down there wont be so much [censored] left.....except the 12yr olds & co.....

So if they added +1 stat every level that would make it less boring? If they removed the compass, fast travel, and quest tracker that would be less boring? If alot of the people that complain on here have played as far into the game as they say they would realize it would be almost impossible to find all the little, hidden hole in the mountain ide locations following "Go the ruins north of location and find the clue about the whereabouts of ." Then after wandering around for 20 hours and clearing 20 caves/ruins you realize you still dont know what the clue was or if you're even on the right mountain. The game is huge and anything can be anywhere. Not to mention the environment is incredibly detailed and striving for realism. It's not like Morrowind where it's so graphically bland that the quest location stands out because you went north and obviously that one cave right there is the location.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:54 am

Yeah, if we had an actual journal that had dirctions like that I would totally not use the compas GPS no brain system. But alas. This game was made for the masses......

Bingo! I was actually talking about an hour ago with another member about that, hence, I created my signature below.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:01 am

So if they added +1 stat every level that would make it less boring? If they removed the compass, fast travel, and quest tracker that would be less boring? If alot of the people that complain on here have played as far into the game as they say they would realize it would be almost impossible to find all the little, hidden hole in the mountain ide locations following "Go the ruins north of location and find the clue about the whereabouts of ." Then after wandering around for 20 hours and clearing 20 caves/ruins you realize you still dont know what the clue was or if you're even on the right mountain. The game is huge and anything can be anywhere. Not to mention the environment is incredibly detailed and striving for realism. It's not like Morrowind where it's so graphically bland that the quest location stands out because you went north and obviously that one cave right there is the location.

I think you're missing the point. Discounting whether or not quest directions could work in Skyrim like they did in Morrowind, the main idea here is that Skyrim is an Action-Adventure game with the trappings of an RPG. A great game on its own, but for those of us who are really into RPG's it does not live up to those expectations. It goes deeper than having attributes or a couple more skills - it involves a desire for more than a bland story, or superficial dialogue/explanations behind quests. The world has gotten prettier, but it's less thoughtful. My mind isn't really stimulated that much, though my eyes are happy.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:55 pm

- the skills/game mechanics are pulling me out of immersion and thinking about how "the system works" and how to make the "best choices" not the ones I want to roleplay

Why? All it does is give you control over how you want to shape your character. If you're powergaming that's your own fault. I roleplay my thief so I have invested a few points in lockpicking and pickpocket despite them being very subpar perk trees.

- I am about 60 hours in but the quests are looking perilously thin on the ground now (with all the voice overed NPC's and expensive graphics can they afford to make a game with the content of Morrowind again)

I have never ran out of quests to do. But I don't do only quests. I explore every nook and cranny on the way to a quest. If I were to do quests to the detriment of everything else, then yea, I'd run out.

- the dungeons are boring and linear so despire the obvious handcrafting which brought the game alive they started feeling dull about 30/40 hrs ago

For once the dungeons look different enough from eachother that I actually feel like I'm exploring something new instead of the copy paste feel of older Beth games. Maybe it's not the dungeons per se, but your character itself which is boring you because it's not helping you immerse yourself in the game.

- I feel that while its a sandbox, actually the reality is talk to NPC and visit location, return is the only way to play the game (it doesn't seem to reward the usual exploration well)

What? Exploring will give you perks, loot, shouts, sometimes dungeon quests and, well, the fun of exploring new places.

For me, Skyrim is the holy grail of gaming, so I can't help but feel for you people that are unhappy with it.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:45 am

Skyrim is a sandbox, a pretty good one at that... But for real rpg's there's still a lot more, dragon age, mass effect, the witcher being amongst the best imho. It's a good game but the TES serried is hardly the pinnacle of RPG's. I would like for TES to evolve to have a dynamic and changing world that responds to the character with quests that have consequences but don't expect that to happen anytime soon. I think Skyrim is great for what it is and does what it's supposed to do well. It's better than what I expected.

Also there's going to be DLC, hard to say how that will turn out but we won't have to wait for TESVI to get more at least.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:43 am

Skyrim is the RPG we deserve, just not the one we need right now.

This made me Lol seeing as I just watched TDK again.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:48 am

What? Exploring will give you perks, loot, shouts, sometimes dungeon quests and, well, the fun of exploring new places.

I'll give you that exploring can sometimes bring you new shouts. My main issue is that there's little incentive beyond that to explore because any dungeon you go into will have random, uninspired loot that you'd replace if you went to the dungeon just next door, a few levels later when the game thinks you're ready to handle Orcish weapons now. In Morrowind I often felt that each dungeon had a story - where even bandits had their own names rather than just being called 'Bandit' and 'Bandit Thug', and sometimes that unassuming tomb off the side of the road would contain a very unique, and creative artifact.

Even forgetting dungeons, how many times does something happen like a silly Wood Elf wizard in a Colovian Fur hat falls out of the sky to his doom, carrying scrolls with an enchantment to make you leap thousands of feet into the air in Skyrim? There just aren't too many things like that anymore.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:58 am

I didn't have particuarly high expectations for it. Not after Oblivion, I knew they'd made certain decisions that they'd never go back on as soon as I played it (different target demographic, more simplistic approach to good concepts in Daggerfall/Morrowind etc).

I guess I thought they might revert to their more successful concepts in Daggerfall/Morrowind. They have in some aspects, the gameworld is certainly a more interesting place to be than Cyrodil. However, and it's a big 'however', they simplified some of the most important aspects (for me at least) even more than they did with Oblivion.

The three biggest bummers for me are 1) Not ditching loot scaling entirely 2) Allowing you to create the most powerful items. 3) Ditching attributes.

I've read hundreds of posts about how this isn't actually simplifying the game and that it's just streamlining it to make it more appealing. I agree with the latter point, they're 'streamlining' it to appeal to a broader audience with lower expectations.

That's why it's dissapointing, it feels like they've ditched the old guard in favour of the quick fix action crowd. You can rationalise this all you like but them are the breaks.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:20 am

I think you're missing the point. Discounting whether or not quest directions could work in Skyrim like they did in Morrowind, the main idea here is that Skyrim is an Action-Adventure game with the trappings of an RPG. A great game on its own, but for those of us who are really into RPG's it does not live up to those expectations. It goes deeper than having attributes or a couple more skills - it involves a desire for more than a bland story, or superficial dialogue/explanations behind quests. The world has gotten prettier, but it's less thoughtful. My mind isn't really stimulated that much, though my eyes are happy.

That depends on what you think an rpg should be. Obviously the forum community is a tiny percentage of the people playing Skyrim and even here everyone has a different opinion. Here's mine. I've played Morrowind and Oblivion. Hell anything rpg-ish from original FF to Baldur's Gate to MMOs(wow, war, rift, etc) and what is more of playing a role where you are thrown into a world as a blank canvas and what you do changes you. Your character is nothing when you start the game. My character is a war because I chose to put him in heavy armor and use a 1hand and shield. He gets stronger because he uses what I think a warrior should use. And the perks actually make his play more interesting. Why have the bland gameplay of block, swing, block, swing when he can shield bash the hell out of people, move in slow motion to dodge, charge through stunning.

Out of all the games I've played in my life this is the very first that made me believe this whole world's events are occuring whether I'm there to witness them or not. Like when I'm wandering through the wilderness and I see 2 bandit clans having an a battle over a fort. Just sitting on a hillside watching 5 bandit hiding on some rocks shooting arrows and casting spells and the ones on the wall in the fort shooting back. Then after enough of the attacker were dead the defends ran out of their fort to finish them off in melee range. Or the guy that runs half a mile down the road to get away from you only to get killed by a troll which in turn pisses off a bear that gets killed by a dragon. What is more immersive than being a tiny part of this world thats inhabitants react to each other regardless of whether you're involved or not. Sometimes these events are scripted to get your attention but most of the time they're not. Like when some thief robbed a vendor and took off running and the other vendors beat him to death with brooms. This stuff they put in to make the game feel alive wasn't for 12 y/o that want a straight forward action game this detail is for players that want to be part of the world.

Just because someone can't add stats and make spreadsheets so they can update their blog to try to show how awesome they are doesn't mean this is any less rpg than anything else.

I also think alot of people spent way too many hours in Whiterun doing the "Looking for work" quests to rekill the same bandits in the same cave or they'd see just how much the game develops and how many weird, unique, interesting quests and locations there are.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:29 am

skyrim is a great game but the last few days i didn't play it anymore... not that i am dissapointed in it. far from it but some things just spoiled me for solo rpg's...

mainly the nostalgia feelings from first playing massive rpgs. i have to face it, it will never be the same however good the game is today...

and the second is online games like ultima online and darkfall online. massive full loot sandboxes with lots of other players and adrenaline rushes... there always is the thought in the back of my head that i am playing alone... a scripted experience. the magic in that is just GONE!

games were magic for me when i was younger...

makes me sad...

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:34 pm

That depends on what you think an rpg should be. Obviously the forum community is a tiny percentage of the people playing Skyrim and even here everyone has a different opinion. Here's mine. I've played Morrowind and Oblivion. Hell anything rpg-ish from original FF to Baldur's Gate to MMOs(wow, war, rift, etc) and what is more of playing a role where you are thrown into a world as a blank canvas and what you do changes you. Your character is nothing when you start the game. My character is a war because I chose to put him in heavy armor and use a 1hand and shield. He gets stronger because he uses what I think a warrior should use. And the perks actually make his play more interesting. Why have the bland gameplay of block, swing, block, swing when he can shield bash the hell out of people, move in slow motion to dodge, charge through stunning.

Out of all the games I've played in my life this is the very first that made me believe this whole world's events are occuring whether I'm there to witness them or not. Like when I'm wandering through the wilderness and I see 2 bandit clans having an a battle over a fort. Just sitting on a hillside watching 5 bandit hiding on some rocks shooting arrows and casting spells and the ones on the wall in the fort shooting back. Then after enough of the attacker were dead the defends ran out of their fort to finish them off in melee range. Or the guy that runs half a mile down the road to get away from you only to get killed by a troll which in turn pisses off a bear that gets killed by a dragon. What is more immersive than being a tiny part of this world thats inhabitants react to each other regardless of whether you're involved or not. Sometimes these events are scripted to get your attention but most of the time they're not. Like when some thief robbed a vendor and took off running and the other vendors beat him to death with brooms. This stuff they put in to make the game feel alive wasn't for 12 y/o that want a straight forward action game this detail is for players that want to be part of the world.

Just because someone can't add stats and make spreadsheets so they can update their blog to try to show how awesome they are doesn't mean this is any less rpg than anything else.

I also think alot of people spent way too many hours in Whiterun doing the "Looking for work" quests to rekill the same bandits in the same cave or they'd see just how much the game develops and how many weird, unique, interesting quests and locations there are.

And nothing of that can repair short,shallow quests,unability to choose anything,you cant even decline quest properly,and so on,tired of listing what is wrong with this game,and list is large..This game has no soul at all,Oblivion at least had that,no matter how it svcked in some segments.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:43 am

This. ^

Is extremely rude.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:22 am

I'll give you that exploring can sometimes bring you new shouts. My main issue is that there's little incentive beyond that to explore because any dungeon you go into will have random, uninspired loot that you'd replace if you went to the dungeon just next door, a few levels later when the game thinks you're ready to handle Orcish weapons now. In Morrowind I often felt that each dungeon had a story - where even bandits had their own names rather than just being called 'Bandit' and 'Bandit Thug', and sometimes that unassuming tomb off the side of the road would contain a very unique, and creative artifact.

Even forgetting dungeons, how many times does something happen like a silly Wood Elf wizard in a Colovian Fur hat falls out of the sky to his doom, carrying scrolls with an enchantment to make you leap thousands of feet into the air in Skyrim? There just aren't too many things like that anymore.

I'll grant you that the loot is rather lackluster, i prefer it over Oblivions fullmonty loot but it could've been abit more common to come across something nice, it still happens but when it does it's not the "holy crap i can't belive i found this" moment it should be, i think completely static loot would svck since you'd eventually know where all the best stuff is but i'm hoping a mod comes along soon that fixes Skyrims own loot issues.
But i feel the complete oposite about the dungeons, i think Skyrims dungeons have way more personality than Morrowinds ever did. I've found stories, quests and what and i find just exploring them beeing fun in itself.
While i found alot of Morrowinds dungeons to be boring rehashes, especially all the tombs.
And i've come across more random stuff like that in Skyrim that i did in Morrowind, just recently i discoverd a ruin with a ghost in it, as soon as i come close it runs of and i start to follow it, it leads me to it's burrial where some bandits are graverobbing. No quest, no special loot but just a random event i came across while exploring.

I can sympathise that some people prefer the more traditional rpg of Morrowind and i partly agree about the directions, i never felt following some directions in a journal to be very mentaly stimulating or taxing at all and more of a chore, but it does annoy me when my charecter magically knows exactly where the item or whatever it is i'm supousedto find, is. Like say the unusual gem quest.
But some of the complains against Skyrim, especially things it lacks, boggles the mind, it's like i'm playing a completely diffirent game.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:07 pm

@ Drek'kar: I would agree with some things you've said - perks are cool I'll grant, but could've been done without otherwise revamping the system. I haven't personally seen things like a thief being chased and beat to death by brooms, but I guess they must be out there somewhere. But I'll contend that, though the world itself might be prettier and in some instances more random, or interesting, it's on the whole less detailed, and the quests in particular are a low point of the game in my view.

I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it here again. Oblivion and Skyrim both have a main quest with the premise that an ancient evil is trying to devour the world. Oblivion made the mistake of having a quest chain where you're basically 90% unnecessary, but Skyrim's is pretty shallow too, with the Imperial vs. Stormcloaks thing being almost like an afterthought - a great idea but very poorly done. Morrowind, by contrast, had a more complex storyline, less hand-holding, and a better written plot too. (Where are Bethesda's writers by the way? I think they were on strike during some parts of this game...) In Morrowind, you're initially told that some ancient Chimer war hero / lord calling himself Dagoth Ur has arise at Red Mountain and is preventing the 'good Gods' from regenerating their power while waging war on the weakening Tribunal. Of course, the first few quests of the main story actually revolve around gathering information - you're a guy conscripted to be a spy. By the end you find out you're a reincarnated Chimer war hero yourself, who has a destiny to fulfill (better pacing than Skyrim, for one), and the exact events surrounding the death of Lord Nerevar are never quite clarified. You're presented with several sides of the story, in which in any case it's clear that the Tribunal gods are not as pure as they were originally portrayed, and you're not sure who's right, and who is wrong and who was wronged, just that, for the time being, you need to hold your nose and ally with the lesser evil to defeat the greater.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:11 am

I think you really need to play this game slowly and if you aren't much for walking everything, just play only 1 or 2 hours a day. Because I've had a period where I was basically rushing through quests, and that's when the dungeons get repetitive and the combat boring.
But when you take your time there is far more diversity to be found.

However, the game is still missing things that made previous titles so great.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:22 am

I sympathize with the OP.
Though i wouldn't say i'm disappointed, more like underwhelmed.
And i DO enjoy the game. (which, one could argue, is as much as anyone could ask for...fair 'nuff, point taken)
What boggles my mind is how i have this drop dead gorgeous huge world, and then it's inhabitants, quests, loot, UI, char-creation or skill system time and again do their utmost to deny me that sense of immersion and involvement i so much try to loose myself in.
And i will keep trying, occasionally i even succeed.
Y'know...it's that feeling of "what could have been" that bothers me.
And what imo WOULD have been, if everything else had turned out only half as awesome as the actual gameworld.
The most worrying bit being, that the "streamlining" trend will not be reversed anytime soon (not with this or any other game) but rather even accelerate.

/rant

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:53 am

- the dungeons are boring and linear so despire the obvious handcrafting which brought the game alive they started feeling dull about 30/40 hrs ago

Boring and linear? I'll give you the linear, though I'm not sure how you would make a dungeon non-linear. They serve their purpose and they do so wonderfully.

I don't understand how they can be boring though. Each dungeon I have explore (some of them multiple times over a few characters) have had either an interesting story associated with/found within or have been visually stunning.

You'll have to do some convicing for me to even consider that you don't find the dungeons boring because you are missing various lobes of your brain.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:28 am

Boring and linear? I'll give you the linear, though I'm not sure how you would make a dungeon non-linear. They serve their purpose and they do so wonderfully.

A linear dungeon is one where there is a single path from the entrance to the boss. Typically, there are no (or short) side paths and little, if any, chance of getting lost on the way. The routes in and out of the dungeon are controlled and to force the player to proceed in one direction it is not uncommon to use methods to prevent retracing steps (cliffs, collapsing ceilings, etc). It is also not uncommon to have a convenient one-way exit next to the boss so that the poor player can get out quick and move on to the next task.

If your house was a linear dungeon, you would have to walk through every room in the house to get from the front door to the back door, and the back door would be locked and the required key would only be found in the room that the back door is in, or very close to it. The most important, strongest, or richest target NPC would also be in that room, and no other.

A non-linear dungeon is one where there are multiple paths from one or more entrances to the boss. The boss would not necessarily be in the same room each time, or even the furthest room from an entrance. There would not necessarily be a convenient "priest hole" in the room with the boss, requiring the player to find a path to an exit. Depending on the size of the dungeon, it should be possible to attain the goal without visiting a large portion of the dungeon.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:41 pm

Those aren't enough for me to feel I an unfortunate yeaning for something that is missing:

- the skills/game mechanics are pulling me out of immersion and thinking about how "the system works" and how to make the "best choices" not the ones I want to roleplay
- I am about 60 hours in but the quests are looking perilously thin on the ground now (with all the voice overed NPC's and expensive graphics can they afford to make a game with the content of Morrowind again)
- the dungeons are boring and linear so despire the obvious handcrafting which brought the game alive they started feeling dull about 30/40 hrs ago
- I feel that while its a sandbox, actually the reality is talk to NPC and visit location, return is the only way to play the game (it doesn't seem to reward the usual exploration well)

I hear you OP.

Despite what all the surrogate appologizers say (the fanbois), The current ElderScrolls are still missing crossbows, athletics, acrobatics, and ... you know ... all the real choices and skills and attributes catagories. Where is WillPower and Intelligence?

Yep ... Intelligence was abandoned.

:cool:

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:24 am

I am disappointed by Skyrim. There it is I said it.

But how can I be disappointed in a game that has:

- Amazing and beautiful graphics that bring the game world to life (I am stopping at staring at views again when I get to the top of hills and mountains - lol)
- Dragon battles which are just epic and an absolute triumph for the technical teams that made them possible
- Characters which seem even more realistic than ever, that seems to really have a life (they go to work, knock off in the evening, go to the pub and then go to bed ffs)
- I have seen a dragon and a bear fighting, imperial legion fighting bandits - and these events are all random driven by the gameworld, not scripted - awesome stuff

But yet I am still dissappointed.

There aren't that many RPG games. There are hardly any others that have the resources, time and money put into them that this series does. This is THE flagship RPG. And you have to wait 4/5 years - YES YEARS - for the next one to come out in the series.

So there is the key point. I really NEED this game to be the RPG that I am hoping for. And I know that they are capable of it because they blew me away with the best RPG of all time in Morrowind. For some people they fell in love with other titles in the series (Morrowind is where I joined the series). The Elder Scrolls series is a LANDMARK in RPG, simple, period.

And that unfortunately is why we see so many negative posts about a game which is an extremely good game and great value for money (￡29.99 for me).

It just isn't as good as the game we wanted to see. It doesn't meet my incredibly high expectations. It doesn't fulfill the need I have the ultimate RPG, before I hybernate for the next 4/5 years. For me it's not Ultima or Morrowind. For other it isn't Daggerfell, maybe Baldurs Gate etc etc. Have to be honest though and say those expectations are almost impossibly high to meet - but it is the mission that Beth have, like it or not

So for all its beauty, for all the improvements in game engine that create characters with a degree of indepent action that makes them feel lifelike, the voice-overed NPC speech (which is very detailed considering it is voice-overed)...................

Those aren't enough for me to feel I an unfortunate yeaning for something that is missing:

- the skills/game mechanics are pulling me out of immersion and thinking about how "the system works" and how to make the "best choices" not the ones I want to roleplay
- I am about 60 hours in but the quests are looking perilously thin on the ground now (with all the voice overed NPC's and expensive graphics can they afford to make a game with the content of Morrowind again)
- the dungeons are boring and linear so despire the obvious handcrafting which brought the game alive they started feeling dull about 30/40 hrs ago
- I feel that while its a sandbox, actually the reality is talk to NPC and visit location, return is the only way to play the game (it doesn't seem to reward the usual exploration well)

Buy hell I will play it another 40 hours, probably start another character so its still got to be a great game right - otherwise I would just put it down.

It just doesn't meet my expectations, fill that need I have for a massive, sandbox, RPG, in a world that totally immerses me.

That's too bad it doesn't meet your (lofty) expectations. Feel free to design a better game, but you may want to question your mentality first.......somehow a person that gets 40 hours out of a game (with more on the way) and still isn't satisfied, isn't someone who has a valid opinion.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:35 pm

Well, it's kinda conforting to see that I'm no longer the only one who feels disappointed.

I grew bored of Skyrim quite soon, and I never had too much hype for the game. All I hoped was for it to be at least as good as Oblivion. But it's not - hence my disappointment.

Skyrim really, REALLY needs mods, before more and more players lose the initial overhype and see the game for what it actually is.
Bethesda should better hurry with that construction kit.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:39 am

There seems to a lot of rose tinted glasses going on the forum Morrowind was a good game yes but not as great as everyone makes out. I remember when it came it out people where basicly saying the same thing as they do Skyrim. Give the game time to bed in and see where it stands in a few months/years.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:34 am

Eh, TES certainly offers a lot of hours to dump into it, and they are usually quite expansive, but I have not really ever felt like Bethesda makes "the best" RPGs, only the most overhyped. Bioware had them beat the majority of the time easily. Morrowind and Fallout 3 are the best games Bethesda has ever made (Daggerfall was good, but it's not very replayable today), and that's honestly not saying much considering how long it takes them to produce and release their usually beta state software. Even mods could not prevent Oblivion from being one of the most boring experiences ever.

That being said, I won't lie. Skyrim has held my attention for a long while, and they really did improve a great many things. But they also backpedaled in a few areas as well. As they say, the more things change, the more they stay the same, and it's still a pretty standard Bethesda game in the end.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:28 pm

I had only medium to good expectation but the game still is quite deceiving.
Explanations:
1) Game base: Weakest console on the market: XBOX (lowest comon denominator limit the whole chain (game))
2) Game Market: Market spill out shallow games
3) Bethesda market: They are alone, can throw any [censored], due to no concurrence it will sell
4) Gamers ADD and brain challenged whinnyers.
5) Incompetent programers when it come to actuall tech (Engine is at its base Morrowind Old, and GFX apart it has only acumulated flaws (Oblivion))

Final tought: Sum 1, 3 and 5 and thats what TES will be unless Monopole of sandbox fantasy single player is broken by someone who step the ant up.

Future:
Good point: It can t go further than that not becoming arcade. So there s good chance it can be better.
Bad point: Next generation of console is even more weak compared to PC now than what they where when released. (2gb of memory)