He has CHIM. How much further up the ladder is there?

He didn't have Chim when the Nerevarine showed up with thirty pounds of artifacts. He seems to have known Chim but never kept it for long. The crowned tower shattered. He means that Vehk could have used Azura as a final jumping-off point to permanently ascend. Heaven by violence indeed.

Kinda like this...



Only, I think he had it far before then. As a gesture, look at the way Vivec city is built. Minus the Foreign Quarter, there's six cantons, plus the Abode of Vivec (if you include the Temple. I mean, it's pretty much part of his home) at the (God)head of them all. And of course the statues at the temple with him piercing Lorkhan with MUATRA, and the C0DA flowers at the base of them. But having CHIM is only half (or, well, six-sevenths) of the battle. You've covered the IS, and the ISNOT, but to truely ascend (as paws said, permanenly), you need to escape the Hurling Disc, the Second Serpent, AE. And what better way to escape then jumping off of the Tower of one who already has? Which is why its pretty sticky business, because with that tactic, who KNOWS what others such as Mannimarco or Mr. Sul could have done, or perhaps did do. I mean, if drawing off of the Necromancers Moon for sustainability, that would make it a Stone, right? You could always say 'No, Mannimarco IS the Necromancers Moon', but what if he pulled a Daggerfall, and sort of imbued it as a Totem, which then made him...it? Or, it him. Which is why Oblivion kind of butchers either explination, really.

But, yeah, that's about as far up the latter you can go. Unless you're Lorkhan. Then that's like...drawing all five parts of Exodius in a Yu-Gi-Oh match. Or, like...going to a bar fight with a Browning .45.

Or, of course, he did and therefore didn't give a damn if/when his throat was cut.

"What are you talking about? Darth Revan was a woman!"



I don't know what you see when you look at the priest Martin Septim, but I see another head of Shor. He's as much a Master as Tiber Septim or the Netchiman's Son ever was - albeit in a new and different way. Power isn't always measured in things like the ability to mentally hold up a magical fence, or the ability to command Giant Stompy Things afterall.

I second that! That?s how i thought of the Nerevarine the first time I played TES III

I always take my reincarnation quite seriopusly. When I AM trhe reincarnation anyway.

That includes old-style "cleanse the world in fire and Daedric ebony" type stuff. Poor Vivec never stood a chance.

Anyway... I always figured that Vivec, Azura, and Dagoth Ur were kind of LEADING the Nerevarine. However nothing can happen unless the Nerevarine ACCEPTS who he is. Not so much a puppet as someone to rally behind, a face. The prophesied avenger come to return what was lost at Nerevar's fall.

Now what, exactly, WAS lost at Nerevar's fall?

Resdaynia.

Was it? Now, how can one return Resdayn? And, are you sure that there would still be a Resdaynia if Nerevar had never have died?

Well you can argue that Resdayn is just a Dunmeri name for the Imperial name Morrowind. Did it sound right?

English ain't my first language.

Sithis,

No, we cannot return. Resdaynia was a united Dunmer nation, a united Tribunal and their Hortator unburdened by the sin of their mutual betrayal. The death of Resdaynia, the betrayal of Dagoth, the assassination of the Hortator by his right-hand men and woman... that was the death of Nerevar. His death, in my mind, was the closing word of the ending chapter, a chapter which would have just as well ended without it. Much would be different had Nerevar not died, but I believe that Resdayn would have been lost even if he had remained alive. It was a symbol, a state of being, more than it was a nation. It will come again in the fifth but it will not be as it was in the first.

Excuse me if I ramble. It is my belief that Nerevar's death was simply another round of recycling necessary for his ascension, and that Resdaynia is a state of mind.

His ascension to what? Be put on display in Necrom?

Also, Resdayn isn't coming back in the Fifth Era. LKHAN is. :wacko:

It's not even so much a place, as is now a symbol. Look what Dagoth Ur was lurching for. A cleansed Morrowind, a rebirth of Resdaynia.

The Nerevarine doesn't restore anything. The Tribunal created the modern Velothi identity and their psyche. Heck, they created their skin. The Nerevarine cuts the heart out the earth itself and disembowels some of the world's oldest cultures while he's at it. That's why some people feel like Azura's pawn and why they're so peevish when locked in a room alone with Vivec, no doubt.

Who wouldn't be?


BTW...
You certainly have a strange fascination with that "spear".

When I look at Martin Septim, I want to punch his face. <_< Annoying little jerk. But, you do have a point. OB just totally threw character development out the window. All I know is that Martin is Uriel's illegitimate son. I find him, he is a whiny-pants. He cloisters himself up in Cloud Ruler and looks at old books and keeps calling me "friend." Then he turns into a stompy-dragon and kicks Dagon's butt. Like, what? Where did that come from? Hence, my confusion and perception that Martin is just an annoying, useless mortal. He only gets to turn into a dragon by dint of his blood, not because he is awesome (though, the way the Blades drool over him...).

im a teenager, what do you expect? nah, true as that may be i am joking 90% of the time. i thought it would be hilarious to claim that a god's man shaft is my favorite artifact ever, and from the reactions that people gave me it was (yes, i have a messed up sense of humor). i dont think im obsessed with it though... my legitimate obsessions include Redguards (the more traditional the better), ancient cyrod (and semimodern MKesque cyrodiil), and reading too much into trivial details.

Sithis,

I guess I really was not as clear as I had hoped. Basically: Yes, Resdaynia is only a symbol of a united Morrowind (that which was real in the 1st era, that which Dagoth is striving towards, etc.). I say that it returns based on a few offhand remarks from the Loveletter, which I most likely placed too much importance towards last night. The Nerevarine fails at restoring it, yes.

Nerevar was destined to gain CHIM, if the Sermons are to be believed, but the Nerevarine failed at that too...

Hope that is somewhat clearer. Not the best points I confess, I suppose I am just glad for something to talk about.

Nexum,
Ayaan-Si

That?s kinda my talent, and certainly my doom...

Resdaynia is a Velothi ruin.

/pedant

That's Ald Redaynia.

/pedant

It looks like I may have been reading too much into trivial details. Nah, I knew you were kidding, or at least I hoped you were. Just gotta rip ya' a little bit for it. To be perfectly honest, your penchant for muatra jokes is more or less an endearing trait in my opinion. Yeah, I guess I have a screwed up sense of humor, too, but you made me laugh and for that I thank you. In other words don't let me stand between you and making fun of Vehk's junk. Didn't mean to imply you should stop. Sorry.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Now that I've kinda' apologized for being an @$$ to the nice lady... I'm gonna very rudely butt into Alaisiagae's convo (once again, probably making an @$$ of myself)

Personally, I think Martin Septim was awesome, or at least had the potential to be. The problem was he was (supposed to be) a pious priest. Yeah, I know it made him come off as a whiny wuss-bag, but look at what he did at the end of the game. I think the main problem with Martie is that he was awesome, but didn't know it. Just think about how he would've been if he'd known all along how much of a pimp he was.

Speaking of this, I know it's really game mechanics, but does anyone else find the last mission of the MQ frustrating as hell at levels 20+? Martin just can't hang. What's up with that? He should've at least been made able to defend himself better at high levels. That's always pissed me off a little. Gotta get that main storyline out of the way before it becomes impossible, or whatever. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

You guys have hit so many buttons in this thread it's hard to know where to begin. But that little word Sithis is fun - so maybe http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_18.shtml would be about right.


As a Nerevarine I chose to believe and then disbelieve Vivec ... mostly I support the belief side, but since this is about Vekh and Vekh here is the other side:

Seeing Through the Lies



This is a load of codswollop. See here Vivec has told you that The Dwemer took the substance of a God to make another God ... and goes on to deny that he and his two accomplices did likewise. But if he did not take the substance of the Heart in the same way that Kagrenac did, what did he do? Vivec et al took Lorkhan's substance to make 3 new gods of themselves - and they failed - they became demi-gods. As much or more vampires as vampires or as the Ash Vampires are presented in that they were siphoning off the substance of a sleeping God to prolong their unnatural lives. Read on - for according to Vivec's own words Lorkhan is not dead - because:



There you are, gods (and demi-gods sustained by stolen God-Power siphoned from the living heart of a sleeping God) do not die - acording to the liar Vivec - they sleep. So (to answer an earlier matter in this thread) Vivec would not mind being killed. But more importantly when Vivec talks about he lies by misleading - if you swallowed what he said whole. So he and his pals paid for nothing - they stole substance from a sleeping God and used it to make themselves powerful, and then in his twisted hubris Vivec manipulated the Nerevarine into finally destroying the Stone of Red Mountain - one of the anchors that keeps the Mundus whole? Maybe he was just as mad as Almalexia - and maybe the reason Sotha-Sil was murdered was because he opposed the destruction of the Heart?

So if Vivec really did as described in the Trial was it because he had actually been Azura's Ally? Does Azura, like the Leaping Demon King want to leave the Grey Maybe, but Her manner is nicer?


Regarding the Ash Vampires? If anything the Ash Vampires may have ascended (as far as that goes, without necesarily becoming Gods) under their own power and were true compared with Dagoth Ur and Vivec:

Where is Vivec in the political scheme of things?


Let's see, Vivec states that he has most sympathy with Redoran ... but he is known as a rogue: a thief, a romantic and a liar - when was he ever a 'soldier'? Nerevar, the one whose avatar you become was a soldier - a very clever manipulation of your sympathy for the role you are playing. Truth to tell he likely loves Redoran and Indoril for being total mugs and feeding his power - but do not read like into sympathy.

Vivec states that Almalexia is closest to Indoril's 'comassion and sympathy'? If you accept all that Vivec has said then maybe ... but then given the way Vivec has manipulated (or tried to manipulate you through your basic 'history') do you trust Vivec or do you rather trust your own experiences?

Vivec, has something in common with Almalexia - they are both described to you as caring beings ... by those who can in no way equal their puissance or otherwise oppose them - the alternative being Dagoth Ur and the Ash Vampires who are more obviously and openly evil, who would basically turn them into mindless zombies ... and then both Vivec and Almalexia and Vivec have tried to murder you ... and someone or something (seemingly Almalexia murdered Soth-Sil) because Vivec and she would have you believe she has gone mad.

Try it another way. Vivec and Almalexia were treasonous, treacherous, murdering thugs who disguised their true natures using the power they stole from a sleeping God ... and their people did not dare disbelieve them. It does seem that Vivec and Almalexia are disciples of Mephala rather than Azura.

So maybe as some have intimated Vivec's whole speech and purpose was to seduce you into the same greed for adulation and power that he and his fellows succumed to.

Vivec was Hlaalu by nature - he wanted power for himself any way he could get it and he used Redoran and Indoril loyalty to betray all around him and keep power. Maybe because of their natures - that of predators he and Almalexia were not 'deformed' by that power as others were - but I really believe that he and Almalexia are/were blighted coprus creatures who appear to be other than that because like the Nerevarine they were possessed of extraordinary mental strength:


You will note Vivec's own description here - what is really the difference between Dagoth Ur, his Ash Zombies and other followers and the Tribunal? There are ash zombies that appear normal to the eye just as Dagoth Ur appears to ... so I believe that it's all the same thing.

There is a difference - Dagoth Ur likely used the power of the Hearth to strengthen his followers - but sadly all most all were not mentally resistant (read intelligent enough) and were unable to cope with the power of an Aedra ... so they appear monstrous - even their brains have changed thus damaging their intelligence. and that says something about Dagoth Ur's fundamental nature. He appears to have made a most grevious error. He wascorrect to trust his followers ... but he did not realise how much weaker than they were than him ... so they were all but destroyed by his 'gifts'. And his remorse at this outcome in turn all but broke his sanity.

Speculation
Larstly (it has been a long post so thanks for reading it) what was the nature of th epotion Divayth Fyr gives the Nerevarine? Well maybe it was simple water. Maybe what Divayth Fyr really offered was belief in self - and that acted as a catalyst fo r the Nerevarine's own nature to assert itself and take control of the God-mutating power that he was infused with.

Therefore looking ahead as you have done then that may well be where the future goes - for coprus (that which empowers the aedra and other beings to enable them to change themselves) is the Divine Disease - and it is now loose in the Mundus.

Oh and is that what the Grey Maybe actually is? A cloud of disease that some Aether travellers ran into?

Plots and murder, those two. Think about the anticipations. I get what you're saying, though, and I second it.

The last little bit of your post (what was labeled speculation) makes some interesting points. I always assumed that Dagoth's condition and "powers" were due to him improperly tapping the heart because he lacked the full knowledge of the ritual performed by the Tribunal, kinda' like how IRL popular culture and folklore summoners of spirits and practicioners of magick supposedly sometimes find themselves attacked by spirits if they don't make an adequate circle from which to cast within. You may very well be onto something about how it "broke" lesser Dagoths, though. I never considered mental strength in the equation. A very interesting read.

I've beenholding back on this for the longest time Dude - trying to argue the other side of the coin - it was fun breaking free from that self-imposed restriction for a change bu tthis thread and it's OP seemed to merit it - and ty for ignoring all the mistakes - must rush now cya.