Ok, first of all, hi you guys! Happy new year!
I?m what you might call a newbie in lore, i?ve been playing Morrowind for the past two years (on and off) and fell completely in love with it: the lies, the political intrigue, the philosophical intrigue, the House of earthly delights... LOVED IT. Don?t wanna talk about the many ways in wich Oblivion dissapointed me.

I have browsed through TIL for those 2 years, but I believe I havent been reading.... in the proper order, I guess I dont have a structure as to how to better absorb the lore, wich this forum is gonna be a great help in.

I havent got around to read the 36 lessons yet, I still cant digest them... And I dont think of myself as a moron who cant read past the metaphores, but I guess Ineed to do my homework better before I can attack all of the Kirkbride madness.... DONT GET ME STARTED ABOUT CHIM

Now, to the point... I like how every player who has been to Vvardenfell has this love/hate relationship with lord Vivec, after all he?s number one in my top 5 Most enigmatic and interesting characters in TES. But i cant understand the mini-dragon break that took place during the apotheosis of the tribunal. Especially Vivec: Did he become two Vivecs in one during this dragonbreak (the mortal Vehk who mudered the Hortator and the divine Vehk who lived and wrote the lessons)? Or is this just a way of rationalizing his actions before his Trial and the faceraqe of Azura? I mean, it?s very easy for me to picture him as a manipulating, lying SOB... He claims the tribunal ascended to gods in order to protect their people, but if that was case why the hell did he vanished after having lost his divinity (did he even really lose it or does it even matter since he achieved CHIM?) and leave the dunmer to their fate at the hands of Helseth and the remaining Houses?

I dont know, the scope is extremely complex and I apologize if you guys cant make sense out of my ramblings

I also need someone to open my eyes about the role the Nerevarine played: I dont see him as a heroe, I see him as a puppet

What I cant figure out is Whose puppet was he? Uriel?s puppet? Azura?s? Vehk?s? or Helseth and his mom?s?

Maybe they all play the roles we se fit they should play... i dont know... is it a matter of perspective?

PLEASE HELP!!!!

I'm no loremaster, but I could address a couple of these. I think the Nerevarine was Azura's puppet at first, and Uriel's puppet to a lesser degree. After the main quests of "Morrowind", "Tribunal", and "Bloodmoon" are finished, it's possible that the Nerevarine started pulling his own strings. The rumor is that he's left for Akavir. I think of him as going to Akavir as an explorer, to see what cultures are there at the end of the Third Era. This is only my interpretation, though, and not original.

I too think it's possible that when Vivec reached apotheosis, he became the god that had existed before his mortal birth. The forum veteran Nalion has said of the Lessons that we should ask ourselves who they're aimed at. It could be that question boils down to: are they aimed at the ordinary people, the faithful; or are they aimed at the Nerevarine. The latter seems more likely to me. Vivec knows the Nerevarine will one day be born, and he's teaching the Nerevarine about the true nature of reality (sort of like teaching Neo about reality). But again, I'm probably wrong.

When I started in the forums, I thought Vivec's writings had been made up by some anonymous priest in order to keep the faithful in line, but over time it seemed likelier that we should take them literally. At the same time, MK has written a lot of metaphors in them. There was a thread once that seemed to say the various monsters like City-Face are metaphorical, but others on the Lore forum can explain that better.

Vivec probably departed for Aetherius (if we accept the Trial of Vivec) because he knew the Tribunal's day was over. For that matter, they had had a good run -- millennia of rule. With Almalexia, Dagoth Ur, and Sotha Sil dead, Vivec was free once again instead of the hermit he had become. I know that's oversimplifying it, but apparently he was ready to move on.

Yes, I read that rumor somewhere in TIL, and then heard it in oblivion... I guess we could speculate that since the Nerevarine lost support from Azura, he?s most likely to get killed over there. This way the devs can get rid the Nerevarine (since he is the player character in TES III) from future lore developments. Of course, that?s asuming that we can take the introduction speech of TES III literally: "FEAR NOT, FOR I AM WATCHFULL. YOU HAVE BEEN CHOSEN".



That is a very very interesting point of view, i never thought from the lessons in that perspective. Thanks a lot!

Nerevarine a "he"? I think we're going to have to pull a Dragon Break for the Nerevarine's gender.

It isn't like Azura ever gave you special powers. She just told you you needed to follow the prophecy. Same with Vivec, all he did was talk to you and let you look at some documents. Uriel sent you over to Vvardenfell, but you don't have to even go to Caius. It is a matter of perspective. I think Azura, Vivec, Dagoth Ur, and Uriel influenced the Nerevarine, but the same could be said of any interaction - Uriel in TESIV talking to you and ordering you to bring the amulet, Martin wanting you to fetch the components for the gate to Paradise... The only difference is that in TESIV, the people influencing your actions weren't highly powerful beings. When you start involving highly powerful beings, you start talking about 'gods' and that leads to ideas about predestination and fate and divine intervention/guidance, which just muddies the picture.

Thanks, Alai. That was sloppy of me; I usually write "he or she" about the Nerevarine.

I guess it's a significant question whether the Nerevarine is someone who chose to be the Nerevarine, or whether he or she was destined to fulfill (some of) the prophecies. Why is it our characters succeed while the False Incarnates fell by the wayside? Were they "not really" the Nerevarine, or were you just lucky in being born at the right time? I guess we're not meant to know.

Only the Temple calls them "False Incarnates", they call themselves "Failed Incarnates". Which means the only difference between you and them is that you didn't fail...

syronj: There is no need to start of straight with the insults.

Alaisiagae: Chimpanzees break stuff by default so you don't have too!

Perhaps I'm mistaking Uriels dreams about me for something baser, perhaps I'm mistaking Jauffres instant trust for senility, perhaps Martins moments of faith for superstition and perhaps my expected visit to Paradise for Mankars arrogance, but I'd say that even with the Prophecy of the Nerevarine and Zurin Arctus in the intro, there was more predestination in Oblivion then in Morrowind.

That's a good point about "Oblivion", proweler, but I don't understand what insult you refer to.

imo, the Nerevarine goes to Akavir http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#17.

in game predestination may not seem like much. However, i think that the sermons really pull a huge one on it, everything Nerevar and, to a lesser degree, Vivec, does is to prepare for the Nerevarine. [s]he is to reach heaven by violence, be the ruling king, etc. etc. ... which kinda lets us down in game.

i havent been on the scene for a while so excuse any possible stupid.

Yeah, the "Nerevarine as a he" part was my fault. I tend to think of the Nerevarine as male because every time I played Morrowind I created a male character. Sorry about that, didn?t think it was a big deal



Could you elaborate on that? Are you talking about the way Vivec, Dagoth Ur and Nerevar prepared the ground for the coming of the Nerevarine?

I thought he was talking about monkeys.

:turtle:

You have to ask though, do Vivec, Azura, and even Dagoth Ur KNOW what's goin to happen, but they simply must act out of nature, because in the TES sense, all gods are pretty much programs?

So we go back to predestination over choice, dont we?

What? Could you elaborate?

I didn't really get that part either. But if I may say what I think he meant is that he sees it as the Matrix some how?

i believe he was referring to the fact that gods are ideas and function only as those ideas, and therefore do not express any sort of real free choice. that thought does not apply to the tribunal however, since they are not et'ada but merely really powerful mortals. Azura certainly (in my mind) acts only on her nature, but she does not know what is going to happen. Vivec knows what is going to happen, and has been planing it all along.

A very nice catch! I never knew that. Very interesting.

Anyway, I don't think there ever was any Nerevarine. It's for the player to decide, technically. I mean, the Nerevarine was just a belief. There may not even be one. It could just be that the emperor, the temple, the Ashlanders simply assumed the hero of Morrowind was the Nerevarine, and Azura supported him/her as well, knowing he was capable of fullfilling the "prophecies". Possible?

The Nerevarine (in my mind) is more important as a symbol than as a literal incarnation of Lord Nerevar. So whether or not the hero of Morrowind literally is Nerevar Reborn is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not s/he is the Nerevarine. By defeating Dagoth Ur, Morrowind's hero fufills (more or less) the Nerevarine Prophecies, and thus is the Nerevarine, with all the symbolic power and destiny therein implied.

Not truly. The Tribunal gain certain aspects of Lorkhan when they ascend. You know the tale. And that is certainly how hey act. Shet Sil, Mystery Enigma. Vhek, Poet of Words and Swords. Ahyem, Warrior-Fire. I see that as being just as constricted as and et'Ada or Daedra. Also, they DO know what's going to happen. Remember, in the Sermons, Dagoth Ur is revealed as a parallel to Nerevar, one who will rise and fall, only to rise and fall again. Vivec knew, of course, and I believe Azura knew because of the simple fact that she's been a guide for YEARS. Look at the Cave of Incarnates. It's very, very old. She knows that Dagoth Ur, the Tribunal, and eventually all of Arubis, et all The Wheel, will fall. Every god knows it, becuase the gods are just the mortals left over from the previous Voids; either by luck or choice.

It's a pretty good deal that they can shed their divine limitations as soon as Nerevar does his thing, then. Vivec does his resignation letter in grand style, Azura goes ape[censored], Sotha Sil swaps out his legs or something.

Not...not really.

Vivec just goes off, and his resignation letter is more of a use of Azura to use her as a base to jump off of, rather than a '[censored], I just MUATRA'd yo ass. PEACE. *Poof*' Sotha Sil was always just...like, a question mark. Like the Riddler! Only...you know, not Jim Carrey...and not *as* gay. Now, it's that Kalpa-farter guy I'm looking out for. :shifty:

Azura knew that the nerevarine was going to reincarnate yea, but i dont think she knew all the specifics of what exactly that would mean or what was going to happen surrounding it (after all, she seemed rather surprised to see muatra...)

but yea, i agree with your post. im not sure i ment to put the 'not' into mine actually

True, but that's becuase it was a random act, not by prophecy. I can assure you, right before the Oblivion Crisis, Julianos and Herma Mora were sitting on a couch with a fat ass joint, a tub-full of Ben and Jerry's Cookie Dough, and Herma was pointing at Nirn, saying 'Like, duuude, nah, nah dude. Like, look, right there man *points to Cyrodiil* just like...waaaait for it....waaaaaaait for it....*First Oblivion ate pops up* AWWWWWH, DUUUUDE, I TOLD YOU SO!' And Julianos is just all like 'Maaan...I can't feel my face maaaan...'

That's not all the Trial was, as Vivec's actions were a sort of group decision by the writers: what the rogue would do when stripped of his responsibilities. I think The Thief Goes to Cyrodiil shows his mental state quite nicely, and it wasn't a scheming, 'time to go mantle the universe with my diabolical plan' sort of deal.

True, true. But, I guess, you know, the Hearts power was fading off from him any way.

Besides, we all know what it's worth for in the end any ways. So even though he wasn't being the cute little guy we all know and love, he was at least making an effort to get further up that proverbial latter.