Trying not to take whatever Vehk says seriously, when he says that he killed Tiber Septim, what does he mean? That he actually killed Tiber Septim? Or he did but he didn't as well?

http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/vivec.shtml lives up to it's name, and is woefully partial.

Can anyone give their thoughts on this?

I heard a better explanation for this once (read: not mine) but he did hand over the Golem that messed around with Hjalti's soul like nothing else. And since we were just discussing the 'deaths' of the aedra a minute ago, draw some parallels.

This sounds completly made up. <_<

No, it's just something Vivec said. Get with the program.

:rolleyes:

Yes I once interviewed Vivec myself,he was at The House of Earthly Delights getting drunk and hitting on the waitress.And he told me about how he created Morrowind and single handedly locked all the Oblivion gates.O.K. I get it. :rofl:

Geez, people. Look a little deeper. There is a similar moment in the Swordmeeting:

Compare:


With:


My interpretation: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him," is a common Zen koan. The literal meaning is shocking, but one shouldn't question the morality, but the intent, especially in the words "Buddha", "road" and "kill".

The phrase comes close to this tidbit from the Sermons:

"Embrace the art of the people and marry it and by that I mean secretly have it murdered.

The ruling king that sees in another his equivalent rules nothing. "

Vivec, then, was "killing" the emperor, not by violence, as Cyrus did when winning his battle but losing the war, but by submission. And in the end, he deferred an active participation in that metaphysical struggle onto someone else.

Zurin + Wulfharth = "Tiber Septim"......or at least until Hjalti Earlybeard decided to steal their mythic importance. Wulfharth was being "downsized" like a computer that looks at a newer model, i.e. Hjalti.

"Though the Empire has crumbled, there are rumors that a chosen one will come to restore it. This new Emperor will defeat the Elves and rule a united Tamriel. Naturally, Wulfharth thinks he is the figure of prophecy. He goes directly to High Hrothgar to hear the Greybeards speak. When they do, Ysmir is blasted to ash again. He is not the chosen one. It is a warrior youth from High Rock. As the Grey Wind goes to find this boy, he hears the Greybeards' warning: remember the color of betrayal, King Wulfharth." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml)

Vivec gave Hjalti the Numidium to use with Zurin, who would betray Wulfharth. Thus was "Tiber Septim" killed in a mythic sense, replaced by another mythic, "newer" version as Hjalti+Zurin.

(Is this true? Only the reader knows.)

____The Word Merchant of Julianos

Did Vivec anticipate this outcome then? He seems to have prescience when talking to Cyrus, but Cyrus is mortal and finite.

Would Vivec have given Numidum, if Tiber Septim wasn't going to kick the bucket and get tangled in this mess?

So it must mean something completely different from what it seemed to mean.

This guy here, he should be the honorary head of both the No Duh and Literary Interpretation faculties at the So Terribly Funny University (their football jerseys are the greatest).

Uh oh. I see a mini-muatra in somebody's future! :prod:

I think TWM is very much on to something about the Ysmir thing. Before we can say, for certain, whether or not Vivec killed Tiber Septim, it would be prudent to first have the knowledge of who both these people are/were. We know, without a doubt, who Vivec is, but what about Tiber? We have no clue. There are three suspects, and all the facts point to all three possibilities being simultaneously right. So, if Tiber Septim is three people, he could've killed any of the three. Well, we know for a fact that after the events surrounding the activation of the numidium, one of these people is dead, one is undead, and another is both a liar and a king. We have no certainty about who ended up in what role, but we do have a good idea. So, who gave the "emperor" the golem? Vehk. Vehk is responsible for the death of at least one (two if you count undeath as death, and I do) part of the enantiomorphic emperor. In this respect, Vehk literally killed Tiber Septim.

I bet Jacques Derrida was their star player.

If you're going through hell, keep on going. Something someone or other said.

For the record, I HATE the Arcturian Heresy.

That being said, Vehk wanted to kill Tiber Septim, but couldn't so he resorted to philosophically killing him, i.e. talking long enough and obfuscating the subject so that by some theory of association, and some obscure definition of "kill", Vehk symbolically killed him. At least he didn't try to [censored] him...

Let's look at it this way; if it weren't for Vehk, and the giving of the Numidium, Tiber would not had conquered Tamriel, well, most of it anyway.

The real Tiber Septim would not have needed the Numidium. "Remember the color of betrayal...."

I know that the "color of betrayal" is or is extremely connected to the Underking, but...what does YOUR statement mean, lol

He'd probably have eventually subjugated Summerset. It just wouldn't have been easy. And he'd have to wait until the troubles in Hammerfell were over before invading.

This is off-topic, but I read once that this could also mean that since the real Buddha has been here and left, you should kill this one because he's an imposter.

Simply put. Why would the Buddha be on the road anyway? Another way is to see this; if you think you've caught up with Buddha, you haven't. So kill the idea and get back to your practises.

SO Stop postulating and get to your practises!

Well I took the simplest way of understanding things and decided that the White king was the empire, and "killing" the white king meant avoiding being conquered and forcing them to an armistice to make things more favorable.

Well Vehk is undeniably egomaniacal, so it's natural for him to twist language until he feels that he's won a conflict. Does he ever justify his actions in giving Numidium to Tiber Septim? Did he think that Tiber Septim would eventually destroy himself with it?

Vehk...ego? Ayem, Azura, Boethiah, Dagon, Seht et all have egos just as large or larger than Vehk. Vehk is probably the most humble; I haven't yet seen any other god take the place of a guar and stomp around in the mud.

And twisting language is the staple form of communication here. Semantics is one of the pillars of lore and debate when you don't agree.