vivec killed nerevar to make way for his rebirth. he killed morrowind for the same reason. that and he is a self-centered little fellar.

your post did not equate with MKs. you were saying that vivec, even with CHIM, is below a god. MK says that there is something above the godhead.

But the thing is there was no need for him to destroy Morrowind, because he could just snap his fingers and Morrowind would have been reborn. In an infinite perspective there is no need for anything to happen, because it is pointless.

The main reason I don't like this view of CHIM is because I think it's horrible lore. It's like the old "if god can do everything, why doesn't he help everyone" and so on, but in this case the answer is "he doesn't feel like it". What kind of a [censored] answer is that?

The way I want it to be, is that when one has achieved CHIM, one knows everything in one's own mind, and if one keeps meditating or whatever, it happens as MK said, the world you've created in your head becomes a new universe where you are the godhead. But before one becomes the godhead of one's own universe, there must be a phase where one is seemingly cut of from the world one existed in before, and noone can properly interact with you because they can't see your dream. That would make more sense, or at least I think so.

In a mass contradiction, I'm sure one more contradiction is possible inside of it.

edit: @M'aiq: don't call it horrible lore because you can't understand it. The way I understand it, CHIM involves a sort of contentment with the cycle of life along with it. If you "save everyone" you defeat the whole purpose of life. And you really can't do that until a further realization is reached.

And if you're the whole world, including everything in the world, how self centered are you?

Well, this here can also relate to what I said in my last post, that if CHIM is only in the CHIM-persons mind, then there can be several people with CHIM, because eventually the person in question would separate from the entire universe and become a new one.

the unique thing about CHIM, as opposed to ascension or Nirvana or anything similar, is the fact that it is based on ones ego. you have to be a really egoistical, self-centered person to maintain your individuality when you know that its all a dream. saying "screw you guys because you don't love me" fits perfectly with that, a vision of some benevolent god who saves everyone does not. Besides, faster is not necessarily better. the godhead sees all the possibilities, and decides that destroying morrowind is the one he likes.

when you get CHIM you dont become a god, you become THE god. Tamriel is now your dream, everyone partakes. there is no separate new universe you invent, you simply gain control over the one that already is. everyone can see your dream, because they ARE your dream.

Yeah but this still doesn't disprove what I'm thinking of. Wouldn't the ultimate "I" be to just stay in one's own mind and see all the world from your own dream? The people who are outside of your actions in your "I" wouldn't be affected by it.

you can't be outside the actions of someone who is everything.

Someone needs to save CHIM threads from the cycle of Samsara.

The irony is ridiculously palpable.

You are missing my point now. The point I'm trying to make is that the ultimate "I" is oneself, and that causes everyone to be outside of it, but not in the CHIM-persons mind. Note that I'm not disputing what powers CHIM give, but I think that the powers exist in the CHIM-guy's head, and not in the surrounding world.

Somehow all these conversations end up going in circles.

So I guess I'll just summarize a whole bunch of stuff that's been said before.

A god is an entity associated with a certain sphere of power, and so being, is associated/responsible for a part of the way reality is. In short, the gods are the rules (normative, causal, etc) of the Aurbis as it is, though they aren't unbreakable.

CHIM is being the dreamer who dreams/makes real the Aurbis. CHIM might be identified with the Godhead, but not with a god.

The Amaranth is that being whose dreams become capable of dreaming themselves, and thus capable of making their own dreams real.

You're missing LN's point now, M'Aiq.

As far as I can interpret it, MK's post concludes that CHIM is not the godhead. Becoming the godhead is the step after CHIM.

You mean like in addendum with Nigedo's lore faqs? Nobody looks up there anyway.

this thread is moving too fast, I'm gonna hurl

I didn't realise the godhead was in a conscious enough state to make those kind of decision. I thought the godhead didn't know it was dreaming, and couldn't comprehend the dream, and CHIM is taking advantage of that.

I suppose the question is whether we should link the godhead with CHIM, or the godhead with the Amaranth. I linked the godhead with CHIM, on the presumption that the Amaranth hasn't come about yet, and the godhead already is. But I haven't read the Loveletter or the 36 Lessons in a while, so I could be mistaken.

just replace the godhead with vivec

"The Amaranth is that being whose dreams become capable of dreaming themselves, and thus capable of making their own dreams real."

This contradicts what you all say about CHIM. If the Amaranth once was a dreamer (read: CHIM-guy), then there must have been a godhead during that time. When the dreams of the Amaranth begin dreaming themselves, then he becomes a new godhead, a new universe. So during the time that the Amarath was dreaming, he must have been doing so inside himself, because it's the current godhead that dreams up all of existence, not the one who is creating a new dream. The dream of the CHIM-person is separate from the dream of the godhead, the current existence. That's what I'm trying to say.

Amaranth is the Scarab that transforms into the New Man, but the Scarab isn't the Amaranth until the transformation, as the parent isn't a parent until birth.

I want to die now.

:shakehead:

I'm not sure that the Amaranth exists yet. The Amaranth is a might be someday.

Now, let's suppose that within a dream is another dreamer, who's dreaming another dream (I think that's what you're getting at). Is the dream of the second dreamer separate from the dream of the first? In a certain sense, yes, in a certain sense, no.

I think that the amaranth is going to be Vivec.

___________________________

To explain my thoughts about CHIM in relation to the present universe:

Every man is the son of the godhead. He was created by the godhead, or rather the godhead's dream. When a person realizes this fact, he gains CHIM. But by gaining CHIM, he does not replace the godhead as the dreamer! The other people without CHIM will simply begin existing in both his and the godhead's dream, separate from one-another. So, for the people who exist in the godhead's dream, the new dreamer has no power. But in his dream, the new dreamer has all the power in the world.



This is what I've been attempting to say with all my talk of alternate timelines and stuff.

To me the Amaranth seems like it's going to be everyone. Everyone achieving CHIM. An awakening of macrocosmic scale.

I'd say it's the progenitor of that awakening, and symbolised by Scarab transforming.

Let's not get entangled in what the Amarath is, my guess in my last post had nothing to do with the rest of that post
The Amaranth itself is a subject for a different thread.

EDIT: MK, since you are in here again, how about saying something not so cryptic?

so how do you explain the things vivec and talos did with their nonexistent power? or the nonexistent power of the Numidum, while were at it?