I haven't read enough about either Talos or Numidum to talk about those, but as for Vivec:

He once was a god, and therefore what he did in the games (and before) was possible. He then lost his godly powers. General consensus is that he achieved CHIM after the games, correct? The only proof of that he did something really powerful after the game is in the trial of Vivec, right? There is no way of knowing whether the trial of Vivec was written down in Vivec's dream or the Godhead's dream. Is there?

Also, I had that idea about Sheo and all that, but that went down the drain. But perhaps it still holds some valid ideas. Dunno.


This is getting really confusing, though.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#12

Why do you assume what is true in the dream of the dreamed dreamer is not true in the dream of the first dreamer? Ostensibly, it would seem that the dream of the dreamed dreamer is a localized (to use a spatial metaphore, which is only slightly misleading) truth.

Because he was a god and didn't need CHIM? As a god he could already foretell various possibilities of the future, methinks. Also, is there any proof that this actually happened? It might be flavour-lore just like basically every other ingame book (which is also to say that it might have happened, but blown out of proportion in the writings). One has to keep in mind that in TES lore, things written by in-universe characters are not hard-fact. One can also theorize that Vivec said it like this to teach the Nerevarine (or Nerevar) about CHIM.



Why should I assume otherwise? I've backed my opinion up with reasoning, but I haven't heard anything behind this.

___________________________________

A completely different question here, that I'd like some input on: If Vivec didn't get CHIM until after the games, then would it be possible that he withdrew for a time to meditate on it?

I'm not sure CHIM has much to do with need. Sometimes its just good clean fun.



I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you on relation between the dream of the first (if there is such a thing) dreamer and the dreams of secondary (internal) dreamers. I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say, in a more lucid form.

Another misleading anology to add to the pile:

Have you ever set about to write a story, and one of the characters seemed to take on a life of his/her own? What I mean is, you'd intend some event in the plot, but the character seemed to compell you to change it. Or maybe if you've ever RPd while playing one of the games, a certain thing you would have done with another character just wouldn't seem right with your current character, although you didn't explicitly plan out that part of your character's personality.

I've certainly had experiences like that. If you haven't I'm not sure what to say to convince of their authenticity. Anyways, that might be a very crude way of concieving of these things.

So consider just such a situation. There is what is true for you, the writer/gamer, and there is what is true for the character. There is also, it seems, the relation between these truths. It isn't at all obvious to me what kind of relation holds between these two types of truths.

That's a really good anology. There are "whats and ifs" in there too, though, because the one writing the story could always just erase the character and begin anew if he wasn't pleased, or he could simply write things that go against the character. But yeah, I suppose the CHIM person could have some powers on his own, but he wouldn't be able to use them in a manner that affects the world to his will. Only to the writer's (the godheads) will. The CHIM-person would have to be really careful about using his powers lest he'd risk getting erased.

But as for Vivec gaining CHIM after the games, Vivec says (after the main quest) "our powers will fade". His powers wouldn't fade if he had the kind of CHIM that is generally viewed as CHIM (e.g. not my view).

I'm going to respond to the last part first and the first part last, because that's the order the responses occur to me.

When Vivec says "our powers will fade" I presumed he was refering to the god-powers the Tribunal got from tapping the Heart, and not to CHIM. I think those powers did fade, but I don't think his CHIM did.

What would you say your conception of CHIM is?

Earlier you suggested that CHIM had something to do with one's relation to multiple timelines, as in comprehending all possible timelines. I think that adds unnecessary confusion to the issue, and would appreciate it if you could state your views on the subject in a more simplified form.

What would you say the general view of CHIM is?

Those that are taken by the loveletter tend to think CHIM is some type of relation between a dreamer and his/her dream. There seems to be some disagreement on whether or not the dreamer knows he/she is dreaming, and whether that makes a difference.

Okay, now to respond to the first part, second.

It is true that the character cannot act contrary to the will of the author, but that might be a feature of the example which shouldn't be attributed to what it's (imperfectly) representing. What if one of your characters takes on a will of its own? Are you sure you could erase it? Even if you deleted every instance of the character's name in your story, will the character really be gone? It's not clear to me what the answer is.

My view of CHIM is only that which I have recently posted. I am posting here to learn about CHIM and explore possibilities within it that I haven't found an answer to, and that is a process. That basically means that what I wrote on page one might not have anything to do with what I think now.
So, my view of CHIM now is that a person with CHIM is a dreamer within the godheads dream. Those two dreams are separate. A CHIM-guy is furthermore a character in the godhead's dream which has taken on its own life and found its own personality, just like you said in your anology. This means, like I just said, that he can exercise some of his own will at great risk, but is free to act as he likes in his own dream, which hasn't gained enough of its own life to make him a godhead inside of it. But I am certain that once one has become a godhead in one's own dream, one looses connection with the first dream, and is separated forever (and just to take the opportunity to mention this here: I believe the Amaranth is the one who can build a connection between two or more godheads).


It is not clear to me either (which is why I think it's great that this thread has finally become one of discussion instead of mild flame-wars). But my general view of it is, as I said, that the character can exercise some power, but at great risk. The author could just choose to throw the story into a fire if he wants to. It's always his choice in the end. Logically, one with CHIM would try to lay low until he became the godhead of his own dreams.



EDIT: I'm going to bed now. Good night, and hopefully the discussion can continue to be polite while I'm sleeping

Vivec has lost his coolness for me, he's an all-knowing and powerful idiot. A guy who thinks he is right because he knows right. This has nothing to do with this thread, but it's the conclusion I have reached.

MAY YOUR MOUTH BE STUFFED WITH BIRDS.

I gotta agree with underscoreLPS here, I mean you really have two options (which almost never happens) of him being totally omnicient and omnipotent and therefore everything he says is true simply because he says it, and therefore none of what your characters (or any other characters) does has any meaning because they are all Vivec's crazy illusion which is a real cheap player punch or, my interpretation of him being a liar who's totally full of [censored] more or less robs him of most of his meaning once the heart of Lorkhan is freed and he is removed from his stolen godhood. So either nothing but him matters or he doesn't matter. You probably only need one guess to tell what most of the forum would pick

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#13

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml, http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml#3.

Hey, I'm only here because this thing is literally in my pocket.

And I'm not being cryptic, the sigil just broke.

As for what I think *you* are trying to get at, the name is Witten. Maybe. I can't tell, as you're all over the place and a bit unpolished.

If it is Witten, you're saying Vivec's words, given the time/medium/audience are hurdles through at least 5th-dimesional space. Which is cool enough to talk about, sure.

The trial is canon. According the trial, Vivec has Chim. MK HAS CANDYFLOSS, YOUR ARGUEMENT IS INVALID.

Not to be a tool or anything but I'm lacking any decent response apart from "you're wrong". The very point of it is that there is nothing outside it, no surrounding world, no two dreams, the person takes control of the one dream. This is like talking about Gnosticism by starting with the assumption that you're trying to become one with the material world, it just doesn't work.

Now for some false speculation based on wrong assumptions that's fun anyway concerning your question of what if more than one person achieved CHIM, think about this first. What's the difference between the first person realizing they're just part of the first dreamer and the second person realizing that they're just part of the first person's subsequent CHIM? If the first person achieved CHIM everybody else isn't separated from them, quite the opposite (and this is your problem, you just assume they become separated for some reason I don't get). Once the first person achieves CHIM they would presumably become the 'I' or the dreamer which everybody is part of, the 'I' which people will then need to realize they're a part of in order to achieve CHIM. Its like a big snake eating it's tail, once it gets all the way around it becomes the snake that's being eaten, or is that too much to read into it? It makes sense to me. If "You are all we" then the "we" are pretty much in same position you were before you made the realization...

The only contentions I can see to this is it matters that the one with CHIM is lucid while the 'first dreamer' is or was presumably not. So, who wants to have a naked party?

You've got it backwards. If he had CHIM he wouldn't need to be a god. :mellow:

:turtle:

"CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled."
Pleease, vicec, do it!!!

The fist part, though, maybe it wasn't an ansver to me, but that's exactly what I meant, he believes he thinks right because he knows right, and that's wrong.

The reason I think this is:

Imagine that you are the current godhead. Now, someone starts dreaming inside your dream. Why would you suddenly start dreaming his dream? The dream is obviously in HIS head, because he has broken free from the illusion that you've created for everyone and is dreaming on his own. I just can't find a reason for that to mean that he has taken over your dream. It rather seems like he has created a universe of his own, while still existing in the universe he was originally in. If the new dreamer made some crazy stuff in his dream, it wouldn't mean anything for the rest of the people in your dream, because after all, he is just dreaming.


?

That question mark was mostly aimed at the word Witten, which is, for all I know, a city in Germany. The other part, about medium and audience, that's what I've been trying to get some feedback on all along; how people perceive the new dream in relation to the first one.

It is the same dream, except a new person is in control of it.

This enire thread is other people telling you your wrong, and you not listening. it does you good to listen, I know that firsthand.

I am listening, but no one has made a point that is logical enough to change my view on the subject. I have come to my own view on this subject by reasoning, but so far I have only seen one single post that has attempted to show the reasoning behind the other opinion on this matter (the one with Dumbkid's anology), and when I heard that, I revised my thoughts.

So how about actually posting the reasoning behind your concepts instead of just stating your concept in general and telling me I'm wrong? I'm trying to have a discussion here, but people seem to want to have an argument. Those are not the same things, and no one will ever gain anything out of arguing except a feeling of self-fulfilment when the other one gives up from being annoyed.

A brief comment on the state of the argument at present. M'Aiq is suggesting that the dream of the dreamed dreamer is separate from the dream of the original dreamer. Others are suggesting that this is not the case. As things stand, the details of the relation between the first and secondary dreamers is not at all obvious to me, and until someone can provide a good reason for their view on the matter (and stating it with a lot of conviction doesn't count) we're in something of a stalemate. If anyone wants to puruse the issue in a way that isn't just wild speculation, the loveletter seems like the place to start.

Regarding the dislike of Vivec, are we sure that either being a god or having CHIM implies one is omniscient and/or omnipotent? It certainly doesn't imply omnibenevolence.

Omnibenevolence = Altruism

But I think that right now, (to me,) the most logical way to see the relations between the two dreamers is that the first dreamer still controls his dream, but the new dreamer is like a rogue character in the first dream that can, if he dares, show unlimited potential. But if the first dreamer doesn't like this, he could just remove those actions.
But then some might say, "the godhead can't control his dream", but I think it's just that we can't perceive how the godhead is controlling his dream. If the godhead removes something that's once been in his dream, then no one will ever have known that this had existed except the godhead himself (itself?).

Let's take your thread title at face value.

That the things Vivec has said are coincidence.

Turn that around a little and you'll understand what CHIM means.

CHIM means that what Vivec says IS coincidence. Or rather coincidence is what Vivec says.


CHIM is even greater than the 'power' of an occasionalist God (the most absolute conception of omnipotence the judeo-chrisitan tradition could devise). The Daedra are less than nothing to that.

As I've stated previously, my current views on the subject are not those I stated in the first post, or even on the last page. Dumbkid summed the current situation up nicely in his last post.

Does the dreamer control his/her dream? It isn't obvious to me either way.

Robynah, I have no idea what that means. Anyhow, the discussion has moved well beyond what M'Aiq said in the original post, a theory which (if I understand correctly) he no longer holds to.

Well, if we take the new dreamer's situation, we can see that CHIM basically means forming a new dream in your head, one which you can control. Now if the new dreamer became the godhead of his own dream, then wouldn't he logically still be able to control it?

So if a lot of people believe X is wrong, X therefore must be wrong? That's a recognised logical fallacy.