Again, though, saying that the Godhead is an out-of-game force means there is other things outside it. The story behind the Godhead is that it made the universe inside its head by first splitting itself into two entities because there was nothing but it. And it still involves determinism in that you can't go against the wishes of the Godhead (also wrong, in splitting itself the Godhead supposedly relinquished control).


I'll take deep characterization before making the universe the cheap and meaningless illusion of a mad god any day. There's a reason Link's awakening is my least favorite Zelda game: it was all a dream, it didn't happen, it was meaningless even in the parameters of it's own fiction. saying the universe is a dream just means it is all fake and pointless, something that is fiction within its own fiction. So I'd rather keep Vivec's character as well as those of everyone else instead of saying it all means nothing.

Yes, exactly what I'm saying. A godhead is something that exists in one universe, but then creates its own universe inside the one it exists in itself. Just like Bethesda created the world of Elder Scrolls inside our real universe. The two halves that Bethesda has split itself into are: 1) The game developer, 2) The godhead perceived by the people inside the Elder Scrolls universe. 1) Is the creation, or Aedra and so on if you use ES terms, and 2) is change and destruction, anologous with Daedra and so on, that the people of Nirn perceive when Bethesda makes a change.


EDIT: I'm going to bed now. For future posters: if you have another opinion than mine, please don't flame, just explain why you think I'm wrong instead. I want a discussion.

Fictional mataphysics... tricky stuff
Either you get some clarification or you continue mass guessing. For me this discussion does not make sense anymore.
God(Betheda, MK): [CRYPTOBABBLE]
Everyone: [Starts discussing, and making weird theories]
God:

A dream is only meaningless if it ends, and even then it is not wholly so.


What if the Wind Fish never awoke?

Don't listen to this man, he tells true lies!

It's always hard to tell if these discussions are progressing or consuming themselves.

I just want to say three things. First, I'm weary about equating Bethesda with the godhead, or the Aramanth, or anything else like that. If we're going to throw Bethesda into the mix, our best bet is probably the fact that various TES gods are based on the names of early developers. There's a thing on TIL about it, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Second, I'm not sure how much power one dreamer has over those of it's own dreams which are now dreaming too (which have CHIM). I'm not sure that the first can prevent the others from doing anything, and I'm not sure that the first can erase the others. Once a character genuinely takes on a life of its own, I suspect it might continue to live on even if you attempt to erase every mention of it in the story.

Third, I've had lucid dreams, but never one where I was all powerful.

I once had a lucid dream. I dreamed a world of gods and demons, of mighty heroes and fell villians. And in this world lived a general. He was of one of the dreamed races, and his name was Vehk, ere the mortals called him Vivec. Vehk realised he was dream, but still retained his individuality. I was him and he was of me but he was him also. He began to dream dreams of his own, and things were different.

Then I woke up and thought "WTF?"

The reason I think this is the case, is that all the lore we have about the Elder Scrolls universe is written or perceived as in-character inside this universe, which means that those characters can't possibly realize that it's actually just Bethesda that's in control (with CHIM person perhaps being the exception, I explain further down):

An example, Vivec uses his CHIM to banish Azura:
In-universe character sees: Vivec uses his awesome CHIM to blow Azura's mind because he wants to.
Out-of-universe person sees: Godhead (in this case MK) decides that he, roleplaying as Vivec, thinks it would be a cool story if Azura gets owned, so it happens, and Vivec is the tool used to perform this.

Which basically means that the godhead is in complete control, but someone inside the ES universe can't possibly see this, since the godhead is more like a law of physics than something tangible. Them seeing what Bethesda is doing would be like us reading the thoughts of the universe itself. That's why I keep saying that it's better to just ignore the godhead because it doesn't matter what it is, it just happens. It is possibly so that the person with CHIM realizes that it's all up to the godhead (e.g, sees out of the ES universe and sees Bethesda in our universe), and that that's the reason to why someone with CHIM begins dreaming himself: it's the only way a character within TES can actually have complete control over something.

But the important part is to remember the perspective. They see it from within, we see it from the outside. One might argue that "the TES universe is just a fantasy built with 1's and 0's and letters on paper, so the godhead can't be something in the real world". But, when you read about Vivec in a lore-book where it says "Vivec went to Mournhold", for example; do you think of this Vivec character as a bunch of 1's and 0's or letters on a paper? No, you think of him as a living character inside the ES universe. The ES universe is Bethesda's "dream", and it requires some of our imagination to see inside it. Remember that magic doesn't exist in our universe and the bottom line of everything is that the ES universe is just a game (plus some more).


EDIT: Another example I came to think about now is: if Bethesda decided to send a huge meteor towards Tamriel that will wipe it all out, then Vivec can't stop it no matter how much CHIM he has. If Bethesda has decided that it's official lore, then it simply happens. Since Vivec has CHIM, though, he would realize the situation and accept it, and he would also try to teleport out of there, but that can only happen if a Beth employee confirms that Vivec was somewhere else when the meteor hit.

M'Aiq, we need to start a religon based around your ideas.

Whether the person with CHIM can stop the meteor or not will depend on a whole assortment of things; but, Bethesda can't stop the person with CHIM from acting how he/she chooses. There may be limits on what the person with CHIM can do in and to the world, but neither the world nor the developers can circumscribe what choices the person with CHIM can make within and about that world. That's what I mean by saying the first dreamer doesn't have complete power over those with CHIM.

And Vivec did "teleport out of there."

What I'm trying to say is that the reason for why anyone thinks that the godhead doesn't have complete control is that all the lore we have about it is written from an in-universe character, and that character can't perceive that the godhead does anything at all. That's what I mean by "an ES character knowing what Bethesda is doing is like one of us reading the thoughts of the universe itself".


Yes, because the godhead (MK in this case) said so.

But in the trial, Vivec explicitly claims his actions are an instance of CHIM. And that's precisely the point I'm making: CHIM is not bound by Aurbis, Bethesda, or anything else. Vivec can break the rules because he has CHIM.

Vivec's powers are instances of CHIM. The thing is, though, that CHIM isn't real. In reality CHIM is just something that Bethesda has made up. If Bethesda says "we are moving this stone from here to there", then Vivec can't say "no, you won't, it will remain here", because Vivec is a product of Bethesda's imagination just like that stone. But then it's important to be able to ignore the godhead (which is what I keep going on about) and see Vivec as a living character inside the ES universe, because then, CHIM is real and when he is using it, it is perceived as free will. Which is why I see CHIM as a form of torture: the one with CHIM knows about the godhead controlling everything, and that is why someone with CHIM starts dreaming on his own, trying to become a godhead himself.

Again, it is important to ignore the godhead, otherwise no lore means anything. Example:
We read a text from the ES universe. It is signed "Tholer Saryoni". If we ignore the godhead, Saryoni wrote it. If we don't ignore the godhead, someone at Bethesda wrote it. One can't perceive the dream of the godhead while still perceiving the godhead, because they don't even exist in the same universe.
This applies to the ES universe (and any other universe, I guess) even if it weren't Bethesda that was the godhead.

The point of having any lore at all in a game is to ignore that a human being wrote it and instead think that a character in the game's universe wrote/did it. <- that basically sums up everything I'm trying to say.

Okies - it looks interesting

details
However I am not so happy about the position re Sheoggy - unless people are saying that both Sheoggy and Azura opposed the Tribunal? That may be so, but then if Vivec was mad (and Alma apparently was) then Sheoggy should have taken him to heart - which was what I felt happened at the Trial. So that appears contradictory.

What I suspect is that partaking of the Heart sent all who did it mad(der) - though if that was because of the nature of absolute power (comparatively) showing the faults that were there in the first place or because of the way that God died or the nature of 'a dead god's power' or the methods used or whatever I cannot say.

back to your core hypotheses:
Your perception of multi-timelining and the abilities of mortals and gods to affect the true timeline looks wonderful.

However there is a point in the argument re madness where I feel you have to be careful. It may be that whether Vivec was mad or sane he would have seen time in the same way and it could equally be that his perceptions of time could have driven him mad or not.

But if Vivec truly had CHIM(p) (no disrespect but that is the way I see it) then I would expect him to truly see all the timelines clearly - asuming in that state one sees all - then one sees all as it is = not madness = super-sanity because there is an aspect of interpretation in sight that for sight to be accurate requires sanity. That aspect is understanding. Well - is true understanding madness or sanity? This requires a choice and my choice is that only sanity sees things as they truly are - to see madness for what it is requires sanity. To experience madness does not.

The next bit is about who affects the true timeline and how. My answer there is that even someone who only perceives it affects it from the point of CHIM(p) - because that perception (even if no other being is aware of it) is real in itself. So also that person if he she has CHIM(p) must perceive himself perceiving it - and that could get fractal = enough to drive anyone mad if they do not understand what is happening.

Again as with other options if CHIM(p) is true understanding then the CHIM(p)ness saves the one who has it from madness because that understanding is not partial.

Now perhaps you can tell me if I have descended into sophistry? :shrug:

Those theories are long forgotten
I was just theorizing wildly back there.

I've been skimming this thread today in the hopeless attempt to catch up, but wanted to comment on a name MK mentioned: Witten. Maybe MK is referring to the string-theory physicist? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Witten

He seems to be known for this theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory
that there are 11 dimensions. Yes, it's beyond me too.

That's one possibility I got from a google search.

Ah, that clears that up. Why can he never say something without encrypting it ten times over :shakehead:
And if you want to catch up, I figure I will create a new thread about my current theory (which I intend to be my last) when this one reaches 200 posts. Question is whether people have been bored to death by my blabbering already and are going to ignore my next topic.

CHIM is the most real thing in TES lore, just askhttp://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/got.html. And don't forget http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#21.

That's debatable

Um, because I expected people to actually know the name of the most bat[censored] brilliant scientist since Einstein..?

In other words, google is our friend.

Or education.

One of the two.

If ya can't have education, google that [censored].

But by percieving 'I' you are perciving 'them'

if you know that you are part of everything, but still can say I, you have CHIM. To repeat: you know you ARE everything, and that everything is you. By understanding everything, than you understand 'them' since 'they' are something, and part of 'I', or the tower of the universe. You would know a part of your self very well, right?

Not everyone is in to science
And there's no need to get hostile, I was being a bit sarcastic, you know.

Sometimes I wonder if theoretical physicists are laughing at the rest of us. "Let's tell people there are 11 dimensions. No wait, let's make that eight! Anyone else want to pick a number at random?"

But okay, I'll admit that these folks are brilliant and take it on faith that they know what they're talking about. Sorry.

Theoretical (meta)physics=modern nature-religion, way to explain things, only difference: It works reasonably.