According to TES is more like it. Don't forget the Loveletter quotes a Sermon extensively

Yeah, but that could be the next step. Acheiving CHIM is the first step, realizing which of the infinite timelines is real, that's the second step that leads to godhood. So personally, I'd say that perhaps Vivec found the real timeline sometimes in the late 4th or 5th era, and then became a real god.

Note that I wasn't refuting the Loveletter. I said that under the pretense that you were trying to dispute the validity of the Loveletter.

Indeed CHIM is a process.

Yes, CHIM is one process, but if my theories are correct, then becoming a god is another process on top of that, namely that of realizing that the power you have is only in your mind, and then finding what is in everyone else's minds. That is godhood. Keeping your CHIM while knowing what the real world is. With power like that, one could start on the real timeline, go to another timeline where you do anything and the go back to the real timeline while keeping whatever you found in the other "dimension".


To put it nicely poetic:

CHIM is to know endless possibilities while knowing the "I"
Godhood is to know endless possibilities while knowing "them"

Keeping your CHIM while knowing what the real world is.
only it dosn't sound so pretty when you say it like that

it sounds like clamydia or some [censored]

If it gets my point around, I don't care what it sounds like
Thanks for your valuable input.

I'll be honest: I have no idea of what you're talking about.

You can chalk that up to not reading posts thoroughly enough; that still doesn't change the fact that I can't understand.

Ok, here it is:

CHIM basically means that you realize that everything is a lie, while still keeping your "I" and being able to do whatever you want, correct?
Well, it's just that being able to do whatever you want, anywhere, anytime, requires there to be unlimited parallel possibilities, or timelines.
The problem is that if one has achieved CHIM, one won't know what is reality and what is just one of the parallel timelines that you can perceive because of CHIM.
Becoming a god would require you to know what the REAL timeline is, the one which all mortals are perceiving, so that you can jump around through possibilities while still ending up where everyone else is, so that they can perceive that you've actually done something.
Because, after all, being a god means that everyone thinks you are one. But if everyone only sees complete randomness when looking at you, you're not much of a god.

You need to consider what it means to be a god (emphasis on the lower case) in the Aurbis (that is, in terms of TES lore). What is it about Vivec, Azura, Akatosh, etc, that they're considered gods? Hint: it has to do with the reason things are the way they are.

I am ... world without am.

There is no everyone; there is no them or they.

and he admits he's a letter written in uncertainty, cut him some slack

All you've proven is, you wouldn't have made a good Temple abbot.

Not everything, but rather the concept of The Other.

You are however confusing Chim with the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor. Chim is "the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster" while the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor is to "transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers" or more complicated as a return to the period where Aurbis still created new original things.

I'm not following you. Why would Akatosh be tending to the unified timeline if there is no "them" who can perceive it and live in it?


"Things are the way they are"? Are you referring to the old "if god can do everything, why doesn't he stop all the evil in the world blah blah"? Well, there are of course restrictions in what I've just said, too. Jumping to another timeline and making something happen there has no consequence on the real timeline, but it gives the god in question a slight hint of the future, if the god is skilled at doing these jumps.

No, that's not what I'm talking about at all.

Why are Vivec, Azura, Akatosh, etc, considered gods? (Though god/demon, Aedra/Daedra distinction isn't crucial for the question I'm asking).

Because people perceive them as such. God is a relative term.

I'm not asking about real world religions. What makes something a god in TES?

According to Vivec, in the game, it's the ability to slip out of the linear timeline and exist in the godhead. (which is what I've been describing all along, jumping out of linear time and exist wherever one wants)

You're mistaking a criterion for a definition. A criterion is a (often distinctive) feature by which you can identify something, but not necessarily what that something is.

Let's ask the question another way: Why is the world the way it is? (I'm looking for the lore answer, the real world answer is obvious).

Duality? Can't you just tell me the answer, I'm tired and should have gone to bed an hour ago

To be a god (emphasis on lowercase, again), is to be part of the reason the Aurbis is the way it is, and not some other way.


Anyways, here's my breakdown on that quote. I don't remember the context, which certainly impacts things, anyhow:



Vivec, whose anticipation is Mephala, and such concepts as are associated: murder, six, secrets, etc.



People suffering rise up against the (divine) powers at be.



Powers at be won't back down.



Vivec absolves/protects himself from all the consequences which might be brought against him by the powers at be.



Vivec rewrites the world, making sure to get some personal vengence. Now he's free. Props to his homies.

Yes, but if one became a god, one would change what Aurbis is, and thus, one becomes part of the reason why it is like it is.
The tricky part is getting to that point.
Saying what you did is basically like seeing a piece of cake and saying: "The cake is, because it is what it is." But if I take a spoon and imbed it into the cake, the cake will still be what it is. Adding or subtracting stuff from something that is doesn't make it what it isn't.


(This will be my last post for tonight, good night people)

There's no other, as prow said

As in, he's a letter written in uncertainty. You percieve as any number of possabilities, unlike those who relegate themselves to the nearest "I AM" receptacle.

(good night)

You are basically saying the same has me. He has achieved CHIM, and thus he has no concept of what the actual timeline of the world is: there is no "they", there is only what he decides in his own world of endless possibilities. What I am theorizing further is that one who only can perceive the "them" of the world, can not perceive the "I" of Vivec, thus, Vivec can't willingly make sense to a mortal any more. To go even further, I'm theorizing that to be a god, means to have the "I" of CHIM, while still knowing the "them" of the world. This would make one able to explore endless possibilities, but still have contact with the people trapped in the linear time of the mortal world, which is basically what gods do.
That's what I was saying with:
CHIM is to know endless possibilities while knowing the "I"
Godhood is to know endless possibilities while knowing "them"


EDIT: And Dumbkid, I see you explored the quote I had posted a bit, thanks for that, but it doesn't disprove my theory (if it even was an attempt at that, I'm not sure ).

My point is that Vivec wasn't being incomprehensible at all.

Anyways, what I want to say is you've done a lot of unnecessary work, thereby adding a lot of unnecessary confusion. Regarding Vivec, the word you're looking for is protean.

I wasn't saying Vivec was incomprehensible. I was saying that he went from being cryptic to being very straight-forward and agitated. Not once did I say he made no sense. I'm saying that the linear rendering of a person with infinite parallel existences can be anything, from incomprehensible, to cryptic, to who knows what, and that a only true god can focus those parallel timelines into a linear one, and that that is the reason why Vivec sort of progressed from hard to grasp to more human in the trials (read: the presence of Sheo).



Also, on a side note, I'm getting kind of annoyed at the fact that one can't speculate about lore on these forums and have a discussion, but rather it's one person who has an idea and everyone else telling him that he's wrong. Delving deeper in to lore isn't some exclusive privilege that only MK has, you know. If MK drops clues, then why can't one read more into it? It's not like the things I say don't make sense.

Having CHIM is recognizing that everything is you, you are everything, blah, blah, exactly what youre mostly saying. However, the most important part of CHIM is holding on to the "I," that is the distinction between each single identity in the crowd of schizophrenic alternate personalities. If you don't see the I/them/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it you zero sum because you realize you don't really exist.

when one achieves CHIM one doesn't become a god, one becomes the God. There is nothing higher than the final subgradient (reachable by CHIM). Above and outside everything, yet still in touch with the "reality" of existence. Thats why you can see and talk to Vivec in Morrowind: he decided to chill down in Mundus for a while.