You start from a false assumption. There is no need for any "multidimensional timeline" or parallel universes to account for possibility, there is only one timeline for the Aurbis and having infinite possibility wouldn't change that - without this need your idea completely falls apart.

He's saying that if you have CHIM there are no longer (or never really were) any 'them', hence I ARE ALL WE. 'They' only exist in their illusory reality (the one that Akatosh is maintaining), one that has no bearing on the individual with CHIM and it doesn't really matter what 'they' perceive because 'they' are an illusion.

Apart from starting with a false assumption, your other problem is that you're shifting back and forth from the reality of the one with CHIM and the reality of the world. Within the reality of CHIM the reality of the world is an illusion, meaning you can't shift back and forth between them with any overarching theory. You can't talk about the perspective of one with CHIM while talking about the perspective of a "them" at the same time because one negates the other. Timelines and dimensions don't apply here because they can't cross that barrier...

Its not that anybody opposes discussion, but when there are obvious faults in a theory they are going to be pointed out. The alternative is to just ignore the faults and carry on the discussion in spite of them however any fruits of such discussion would be worthless because they would be knowingly based on false grounds... besides, you defending your point counts as discussion, and really the only way to clear out problems in a theory is to have to defend it - its the only way to get to the meat.

Everyone keeps misunderstanding me.

YES, CHIM MEANS HOLDING ON TO THE I. But the thing about holding on to the I, means that it's all in your head. YOU realize that everything is a lie, and that there are endless possibilities, but the other people in the world won't be able to perceive the endless possibilities like you do, and thus, they can only perceive a "flattened" version of you, and you have no control of what they are seeing you as. THE NEXT STEP, which leads to being a god, is to realize that CHIM is only in one's head, and that there still are people on the linear timeline that can't partake of your endless possibilities, and thus, CHIM has no power in the real world, where everyone actually lives.
I think that Vivec was a god in the game, then he lost his godly powers, meditated to achieve CHIM because of that, and then, once in CHIM, realizing he had to meditate further to find the linear timeline of the world and thus becoming a true god. I believe this last step happened in the late 4th era, and that the love letter is referring to this new Vivec-god.

EDIT: And it doesn't matter that "they" are an illusion, they still live in that illusion and the one with CHIM has to learn to account for that to reach a higher state.

it is you who are missunderstanding me. there is nothing beyond CHIM. no godhood or anything. You are the Godhead, the ultimate, undivided, absolute. You are everything, the world is your dream. People worship someone with CHIM (or any of the other walking ways) as a god because they hold tremendous power over the world. thats all people really need to be recognized as divine.

It seems like you think that when someone has achieved CHIM, everything else just disappears. It can't be so, because those who still live in the illusion of the linear life must still perceive the one with CHIM in some way, but they don't have the means to do that properly. This theory of mine isn't about what happens in CHIM, per se, but what happens to everyone else when one has CHIM. I've never said that Vivec isn't experiencing total god-status and all that, it's just that he has no ability to relate to those who are not gods until he realises that there are still people in the linear time who do not have CHIM.

The ruling king that sees in another his equivalent rules nothing.

That describes a god, and it looks like that's what you are trying to say. Gods only experience endless possabilities by proxy to the mortal realm, because they are among others themselves. They still may not understand what they've experienced exactly, but they are as curious as children, when it comes to mortals and their choices. Is that what you're saying? Vivec's nature betrays him to say simple things in platitudes of poetry. Is that what "Vivec can't willingly make sense to a mortal any more" means? If so, he spoke plainly in his canton. Like any poet, he can use basic prose or speak in symbolism.

Ok, I'll say this really detailed once more:


When one has acheived CHIM, one is EVERYTHING. One is the godhead, the world, the universe and everything else. It's all just a dream of yours. There is no discussion about that, and I've never said anything different.
BUT just because you've achieved CHIM, it doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't have CHIM just disappears. The world is YOUR dream, and noone else can see it. But one cannot be a god unless someone else perceives one as such!
So when one has CHIM, the next step must be to realize that there still are those who do not have CHIM, and therefore find a way to enter the illusion in which everyone else lives. THAT is what a god is, and I don't think Vivec has that until later.

No, not what i'm saying at all. When one achieves CHIM everything appears to them, since they become the Godhead who is the universe. Vivec can tell what I'm thinking right now because I am just another part of the Godhead (who is Vivec)

Anyways, Vivec is fully aware of the fact that there are people who perceive time linearly and who don't have CHIM. The Sermons were written for at least one of those people, and the Lessons for all. And again, he is in game and in several official and unofficial MK documents spouting things he needs CHIM to know.

And really, I don't think anyone thinks Vivec is insane :shrug:. his grammar could use some improvement at times, and he does fiddle with some awfully high-end concepts, but he isn't channeling Sheogorath.

The sermons were written when he was an actual god. He lost that godhood and gained CHIM. There is a difference!

yes, but the sermons are all about CHIM. their one and only point is to teach us (specifically the Nerevarine) how to achieve CHIM. if he didnt have CHIM he couldn't and wouldn't have written the Sermons.

You have obviously not been listening to anything I've been saying. The reason Vivec gained CHIM so quickly after his godhood is that godhood and CHIM are the same things, except that CHIM does not give one a connection to the illusion which everyone else lives in, because it's all in your mind. There is a difference between Vivec the god and Vivec the CHIM, but he can later resolve that difference by finding the illusion again, but keeping his ability to perceive everything.

CHIM is basically the intermediate between god and mortal, and another step needs to be taken to be a god. Vivec even says so himself when he is proclaiming himself "the king of middle-air". When he says this, he only has CHIM.

while were insulting my listening abilities here, let me point out that it appears you have not listened to anything anyone has said this thread.

being a god, like azura or almalexia, lets you control a small sphere of power. it doesnt grant you any absolute powers or any realizations about the nature of the universe.
having CHIM is being the universe. ultimate power. ultimate realization. you don't need anyones allegiance, don't need anyone to recognize you. CHIM is above godhood, above creation. Once you have CHIM you don't need anything else and you can't have anything else. furthermore, the whole point of CHIM is having this unlimited power while keeping touch with the "illusion"

No, now you've made it more obvious you don't know what you're talking about. There is no division, once you have Chim; no extra gradient of godhood. You have Chim, or you don't. There is no further ascendance, and there is no "them". Chim doesn't mean "I" can't interact with mortals regularly, just because everyone is part of "I". Have you read "From the Many Headded Talos"? He can do it, and Vivec can. What you've proposed, as a further revelations beyond Chim, is not only wrong, but completely unnecessary.


you guys gosta slow, there's chilrun typing here

You are just repeating the same things over and over, so allow me to repeat again:

Having CHIM is to realize that the world is your dream. But the problem is that it's YOUR dream, so noone else can perceive it. Also, you say that "the whole point of CHIM is having this unlimited power while keeping touch with the "illusion"", but that doesn't make sense because if you are in the illusion, then you can't have ultimate power and do what you want, because there's a linear timeline that is being written. If it wasn't so, then dragon breaks wouldn't exist. No matter what you'd do and no matter what you'd achieve in this "possibility-jumping" state would be flattened by a dragon break eventually.


So you're saying that Vivec is lying about himself and what his powers are?

vivec is not lying. The middle air has nothing to do with CHIM, it talks of his domain within the ALMSIVI.

ok, let me go into anology mode here. you're sleeping, and youre dreaming a dream. its a pretty awesome dream, theres this civilization of people and they are fighting another civilization and stuff. youre in the role of an general who looks sort of like jack bower. anyways, as you're chilling in the hot tub, you suddenly realize that you are dreaming. however, instead of waking up, you decide to stay asleep. at this point you know its a dream and you are able to control the dream's outcomes.

the dream is nirn. the dreamer is the godhead. the general - one of the many, many personalities within this dream, all of whom are part of the godhead - is vivec. when vivec realized that he is part of the greater whole he realized also that he is his own person. he chose to keep dreaming (maintain the illusion, if you will) - thats CHIM.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2458/diagramo.jpg

outside of the illusion of existance power has no definition. Daedra have unlimited power in their plains, and the Aedra used to. Everything was all at once and therefore nothing really was. That lead to the creation of the mortal realm, where time and power and possibility matters. Nirn is the only place you can have any sort of real power, and it is the only place where CHIM really matters. Talos decided to nuke the jungles, Vivec opted to giving Azura a taste of Muatra. Both of those required knowledge and power regular 'gods' (the et'ada and their like) dont have.

Allow me to write an anology:


TES 3: Morrowind. The player of this game has CHIM. He can load/save and has access to the console. Being a mortal means being an NPC in the game, being something that the player can do what he wishes with. Does this equal ultimate power? Sure for the player it does. BUT NOT FOR ANYONE ELSE. Just because you deleted that NPC, it doesn't mean that the game you go buy in the store won't contain that NPC, because the only one who could permanently delete that NPC for EVERYONE is the developer, who can be likened with a god, when he releases a patch that everyone installs. That deletion of the NPC is the final, official one. Not that deletion you did. So if one wants to achieve minor godhood, one must exit the game and fire up the Construction set, and make a mod and distrobute it. THEN you are a (minor) god. You are only minor god because when the actual god (the devs) write the official timeline, your mod will by 99.99999% chance not be in there, and thus, that event is an equivalent of a dragon break.


Moral of story: CHIM is not godhood. And certainly not greater than godhood.

EDIT: Haha, anology double-post

CHIM has nothing to do with the CS, the console, or the game. the game is a loose representation bound by the limits of computers. were talking about the limitless world of lore here. your point is moot.

im going to stop arguing, because it seems you've not read or understood any of the material on CHIM. go back and read the Sermons, the Loveletter, and the Lessons and then we can go back to having this conversation. your entire argument is built on false premises and it seems you arn't willing to accept that.

Oh for crying out loud... Are you actually reading an anology literally? An anology is a metaphor, of course the game has nothing to do with CHIM!

the player doesn't have CHIM, or any CHIM allegory, by any stretch of the imagination. The developer could maybe be said to have CHIM, but even that breaks down on closer examination. CHIM would be if some hive mind controlled what we do in game and could spontaneously give all our characters cat ears or something.

btw, dragon breaks happen when one achieves godhood of any sort.

Um, yes he does. Imagine being an NPC and then realizing that, "hey, I can load and save and teleport and even make whole buildings vanish! This all is just a fake world built around me!" Then he has CHIM. That is pretty much the definition of CHIM. Realizing that it's just a fake world that he can do whatever with. But to be a god, he must realize that the are still NPC's in the other copies of the (vanilla) game, and be able to change/interact with those. That is power that requires one to exit the game and have access to the CS and internet.

Nope, sorry. Close, but no. The idea of CHIM relies on the fake things actually BEING you, but you refusing to let that make you not you.

EDIT: As an example, I'm me, you're you. For either of us to have CHIM we would have to be eachother as well as everything else ever of all time but still be able to say "I'm me" and actually mean it.

exiting the game requires pressing Esc and clicking Quit. getting CHIM requires incalculable mental effort and realizing things 99.9999% of people can't even begin to imagine. equating absolute enlightenment with the press of a button doesn't work.

That's an interesting anology too, but it is not one that necessarily negates mine. Ok, so the player isn't the CHIM dude. He's just something else that I won't try to elaborate on now. But back to the NPC realizing he is in a computer world; it's the same as you just described, because realizing that you are in a fake world must mean that you realize that you are also a part of that fake world. You are fake. And that's essentially what you just said. So When that has been achieved, the NPC must realise that there is more to the computer than just the game, and surpass the entire program that is the game (the equivalent of the illusion that everyone lives in).

You're looking at it too much in terms of "computer program." It's not. Like lady N said, for the idea of CHIM to work there must be nothing beyond or Greater Than it. You need to treat the lore as part of a world that is real but entirely fictional, not as the lore of a piece of fiction. So saying that the computer is involved at all doesn't work, because the world doesn't exist on a computer in terms of the fictional reality.

...and then he corrupts your save file and gives everyone cat ears?

either way, i fail to see how this proves that vivec is out of touch with reality and that there is something above CHIM.

[edit] gah Thropes, got in the way

hi MK :wave:

[edit2] k walrus, that might be taking it too far >.>

MK IS HERE!

I BOW BEFORE HIS MIGHT AND UNEQUALED WISDOM!