You're still dividing Chim. What arbitration! You realize your fakocity and surpass the entire program, in one fel swoop.

I've been working on my awesome ninja skills. Can you tell?

Imagine that you yourself realized that everything was fake. That wouldn't mean you knew how to get out of it, it would only mean that you knew you could do anything within it. It would mean further meditation and exploration and so on to be able to find the way out.

(I have to do some other stuff now, so bye-bye for a while )

It is a dream, but if you get stuck on that part you're still drowning in Samsara. What's the difference between a dream and reality? That's a question only you can answer.

In other words, take heaven by violence.

I know where you made your mistake, M'Aiq:

I am confused. What is the relationship of the Psijic Endeavor and the Tower?
Ah. Because from within one, you may regard the other.

You've confused Chim with the Endeavor. The Endeavor is the taking the Tower and process. Chim is royalty and reward.

I honestly get what you're trying to say, it just misses the point. You're focusing on the wrong things, namely, the other people. CHIM isn't about the other people, its about the individual, once you start trying to discuss the 'other people' you miss the point, just like when you start talking about the power associated with it you've missed the point.

Plus you're still starting from a false assumption. Its not just in your head when you achieve CHIM, its not just "YOUR" dream; you take control of THE dream, you're realizing a fundamental truth about the universe. You can say that you make the dream your dream, however this does not create multiple dream realities, timelines, dimensions or anything else - its all still the dream.

When you have control of the dream there are no real 'other' people. The 'other' people do take part in whatever possibilities the one with CHIM should choose to employ, the fact that they don't know they're participating in it doesn't make any difference. They don't know its a dream but they can still see it and they will see whatever the one with CHIM decides to do, any power that the person with CHIM decides to exercise still occurs within the linear timeline. There is only one linear timeline just like there is only one dream, only one godhead.

However as I said, all this grossly misses the overarching point of CHIM.

The point of CHIM is that it is the way out of it. The realization is the power.

1) Dumbkid, your interpretation of the ward is a triumph.

2) M'Aiq, don't forget the hypnogogic part spun along the nature of Tamriel with an admixture of the love of parenthood that would follow. Not the "power"-- the cherishing.

3) To the close dreamers, don't forget the Amaranth. There *is* one step beyond CHIM, but you're right in that it is not godhood. It's the flowering of a statehood where the images you give birth to in your dream-- stolen (?) from first dreamer-- wakes up. Wails knowing free will. And begins to dream in the same way. Children of liberty without end, and then the music lives forever as a pirate radio tuned against the rules of Heaven and the vulgarities of Hell.

Yeah, like that, but, crap, it just shattered and now I need my morning coffee because I have to work.

Still, no wonder some called Him the Doom Drum.

Very Very interesting clash of blades and thoughts here, although I admit their are some Blind responses being made but interesting none the less.
I have a Question. Where is Vivec now? did he flee? was he really carried away? if so how was this achieved? is he *dead* ? what do the books and lore say of his status after the Oblivion Crisis?

He is gone, to parts unknown. The book sheds no light on where, only confirming his mysterious vanishment. Also, Azura seems to have gotten better.
Maybe he couldn't maintain his individuality any longer, having grown apathetic after eons of sitting around, and finally zero-summed or something?

i had a bet on what you were going to say. you covered every possibility.

/me looses to herself.


semi-officially, he was tried for his crimes, he revealed he had CHIM, and poofed out. all we know officially is that he is gone. probably beyond the mortal realm. i suppose him going to akavir with the nerevarine is also a possibility, as it mirrors the sermons.

[edit] i doubt he zerosumed. he left because he had achieved everything he wanted and had become obsolete.

Are you sure?
--------------------
Amaranth, Amaranth... that's in the Made Up Word Round-up, right?

it comes out of the Nu-Hatta summary hmm
--------------------
I owe M'Aiq an apology, for meeting you without full comprehension.

the amaranth is a flower said to grant immortality. comes out of the loveletter, actually.

Jesus, where did the three posts between mine and MK's come from?!

I remember hypnogogic from the letter, but I honestly don't remember Amaranth, which is, as you said, a flower, but I didn't remember the context here.

Does each 'child' then replace the Amaranth as it retains it's individuality and begins dreaming? Or does the first dreamer remain as a sort of primal 'birth-mother?' Or am I (most likely) seeing this in the most wrongheaded way?

The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic. Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.

I've always equated the Amaranth with the Godhead, though I suppose I am wrong.

So, giving birth to the concepts which will rule you isn't a sign of degredation and weakness? I guess I'll stop chillin with the Altmer now.

just guessing, but i think its saying that he gives birth to separate individuals, not to subgradients of himself?

On the Amaranth and the Godhead, this comes to mind: http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#13

So, in a way, it's like waking up in the dream and then bringing everyone, or rather, EVERYTHING, in the dream with you into hypnagogia?

If we just throw in "Compassionate Onanism" we'll have covered all the bases.

I'm really sick of this whole discussion right now, and I don't really get all of that in the quote, but isn't this what I've been saying all along? That CHIM means all the power in the world for the one who has it, but it is no consequence for anyone else, because CHIM is only YOUR realization, and everyone else who observes your CHIM through ignorant eyes are unaffected by it. And such, the next step after CHIM means being able to make everyone else perceive your CHIM and truly be all-powerful, a new godhead (or a new universe if you will)? You are the dreamer of the dream, now make everyone else dream it too.



I don't remembering you insulting me, so you don't owe me anything. It is just a discussion

The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death.


Amaranth is the Scarab, rolling old eras for the New Man to emerge from the refuse and old constraints.

I won't be partaking in this discussion any more today, but I've got just one question:

Since MK's post doesn't quite ring a bell for me (other than what I posted above, I'll "investigate" it closer tomorrow ), can somebody just give me an idea of whether it strengthened or negated my theories? The reason I'm posting here is because I'm working on a plot for a mod, and I'd like to know whether my theories are going somewhere or are just crap.

Should have said that in the beginning. I know that I, at least, didn't get this from any of your posts.

Before MK's post I would have said god and not godhead. This all kinda ruins my plot, though, so that svcks.

And also, I can't really factor in the destruction of Morrowind if CHIM really does equal greater than god. Vivec loving his people and having the power to keep them alive doesn't mesh well with Morrowind being destroyed.

EDIT: now I'm discussing even though I said I wouldn't.. Oh well...

EDIT: And, also, what happens when two people gain CHIM? Massive explosion and everyone dies? One person being able to control everything doesn't go together with there being more people who can achieve the position in question.