The thing about Vivec is that he is a very deep character. That dosen't mean he has to be likeable.

On the one hand, he deeply loves his people, sacrificing his and thier pride to save them from extinction at the hands of Tiber Septim. On the other, he murdered his liege lored and dear friend, then stole his wife and broke a sacred oath to him. He is a warrior, but also a poet and politician. He is an artist and a businessman. He is even both a god and a mortal.

I think maybe even he dosen't really know which face is the true Vivec.

I don't think Vivec murdered Nerevar - from his letters he describes himself as a 'junior counselor' of sorts to Nerevar. To me he seemed more like somebody who got dragged along into the intrigue. I bet it was Almalexia who plunged the proverbial dagger into Nerevar's heart. As Nerevar's wife, she could get close to him and abuse his trust. She always struck me as wilful & ambitious; I hated her from the beginning in Tribunal.

That said, though, I always slay Vivec right after Almalexia. Serves him right for making me trudge through his 36 sermons.

Vehk did fess' up to murdering Nerevar. Whether he was telling the truth... well...

As i believe ive said before, vivec was destined (needed) to murder nerevar.

The monster accepted Muatra with a peaceful look and his bones became the foundation for the City of the Dead, anon Narsis Necrom.
Nerevar put away his axe, which he had at the ready, and frowned.
'Why,' he said, 'did you ask me to come if you knew the eighth monster would give in so easily?'
Vivec looked at the Hortator for a long time.
Nerevar understood. 'Do not betray your nature. Answer as you will.'
Vivec said, 'I brought you here because I knew the mightiest of my issue would succumb to Muatra without argument, if only I gave him consolation first.'
Nerevar looked at Vivec for a long time.
Vivec understood. 'Say the words, Hortator.'
Nerevar said, 'Now I am the mightiest of your children.'
Let this sermon be consolation to those who read it that are destined to die.
-sermon 34

Wait, Vivec killed Nerevar with Muatra? What a horrible way to die... :blink:

Muthsera,

There is no true persona to Vivec, for there are three Vehks to vex us. First, there is Vehk the mortal, who did murder the Hortator. Next, there is Vehk the god, ab initio fulfilled wish of its progenitor mortal, with the two separate beings, save for "one red moment". Finally, there is Vehk the mortal, which is neither of the aforesaid, but instead would say as follows:

*****************************************************
"As Vehk and Vehk I hereby answer, my right and my left, with black hands. Vehk the mortal did murder the Hortator. Vehk the God did not, and remains as written. And yet these two are the same being. And yet are not, save for one red moment. ... But the mortal Vehk before this one is not the one who stands here now, for I am Remnant. And innocent of the charge you would bring onto the head of my former life. I will leave it to others to find where I have written all this before. But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be. The axis erupted. There was an exact cracking, an instant of pure Aurbis, his hands burnt black by that ever-nil of static change, and Vivec the god who had never been had always been. A whole universe swelled up to legitimize his throne... as the old universe, where Vehk the mortal still lapped up Godsblood, warped itself to accept its new equivalent. And like all things magical it simply could not happen, could not Be. Red Mountain was the intersection of the Is-Is Not as it was of old, its center point, and it did not hold. And so the Dragon, having broken, saw fit to heal, turning into the world you know. Except now Vivec the God was alive before his own birth, which had, in fact, really happened in the death of the last universe. Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is. And so that is why some semblance of my anguished personal reconciliation found its way into my own scripture. Why did I leave the Nerevarine two accounts of his death, one that I could have easily erased from the minds of my own people? Because he is Hortator, GHARTOK PADHOME AE ALTADOON DUNMERI, my lord and king in this world and the last, and as Vehk and Vehk I murdered him, then raised him, then taught to him to know, and so would I have it when he came to me at last that he decide. I give you this as Vivec." (The Trial of Vivec)
*****************************************************

Only upon reading the entire transcript of the Trial of Vivec (the .RAR file, not the condensed version) will one begin to understand the complexities that such a creature encapsulates.


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Please stop referring to Vivec as "him" or "he". It is a hermaphrodite. :nono:

Muthsera,

Those are the words of Vehk verbatim. Vehk refers to himself as "him" or "he", NEVER as "it". :grad:

Let me state again, unless you have read the Trial, then admonishing on the true nature of Vivec is presumptuous.


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Any chance that I could procure that particular .RAR file?

http://www.imperial-library.info/forum_archive/The%20judgement%20of%20Vivec.rar

There are a great many things to be learned at http://www.imperial-library.info/forum_archive/index.shtml.

May JHUNAL guide your searches, for I remain...


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Thank you much, Lord Word Merchant.

Anytime, my friend, anytime. :foodndrink:

I think I will attempt a post, though I fear I am unlearned in the ways of Lore. I just recently finished reading the 36 Lessons. Didn't truly understand it my first time through (as I'm sure no one does). From these I get the feeling that Vehk is an uprite guy who truly cares for his people. His interactions with Nerevar, may he live forever in the hearts of the people, seemed to be one of master-apprentice. It seems as if Vehk knew that he would slay his friend and apprentice and that this realization came to Nerevar himself.


This tells me that Nerevar realized that he must die in the future, for that is how things must be. In this case Vehk would not have betrayed his friend for they both knew he would do so and accepted it for the good of the people and the future of Morrowind.

That is how it seems to me anyway.

Muthsera,

I, as deigned by JHUNAL, believe that this Sermon was meant not only for Nerevar himself, but also for all the FALSE Incarnates, in that only the FALSE Incarnates would be destined to die in TES:III. However, this Sermon is NOT intended for the true Nerevarine. Let me explain.

First, the Nerevar in the Sermon is a "child" of Vivec. We know this not only because the Sermon expressly states so, but also because the Nerevar of the Sermons is NOT the same Nerevar that was murdered in another Universe by the mortal Vivec. The Nerevar you are reading about is one "created" by Vivec through the new Universe created by Vivec's actions. (see my quote of Vivec above.)

Now, whether YOUR Nerevarine is the Nerevar that was murdered OR the Nerevar of the Sermons is...quite frankly...up to you. This is why the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/sevenvisions.shtml state that "On a certain day to uncertain parents / Incarnate moon and star reborn."

This passage not only gives the player the ability to choose his race and other game mechanics, but also to pick which Nerevar he (or she) is Incarnating.

It really is a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure situation, and there is no definitive answer. Which did you pick, my friend?


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Alright, my bad. I just liked how it sounded.

It can be anything you wish, and your version certainly has merit. My version is not any sort of "official" explanation. And, yes, I agree; your explanation does sound quite good. :thumbsup:

I merely explain what I ended up with in my game.


___TWM

Vivec was destined to kill Nerevar? I didn't really know this part.... is there a reason why? Why is Azura so angry about it that she cursed the entire Chimer race?
What about Almalexia or Sotha Sil, where do they stand in?

Depends upon which Universe you are talking about. The old Universe, no. It was Vivec's choice. Observe the Hidden message from the Sermons: "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

Was it his destiny to kill Neverar in the new Universe? No. Because he didn't.

It only became destiny (from a certain point of view) when the new Universe relies upon the death of Nerevar in the old Universe in order to exist at all. So long as there is a new Universe being spoken from, then the first Universe had to have happened. Vivec admits that this is hard to understand when he says "Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is" at his Trial.

Now the question arises as to why even bring up that past Universe at all? Vivec answers this at his Trial when he says "that is why some semblance of my anguished personal reconciliation found its way into my own scripture. Why did I leave the Nerevarine two accounts of his death, one that I could have easily erased from the minds of my own people? Because he is Hortator, GHARTOK PADHOME AE ALTADOON DUNMERI, my lord and king in this world and the last, and as Vehk and Vehk I murdered him, then raised him, then taught to him to know, and so would I have it when he came to me at last that he decide. I give you this as Vivec." (The Trial of Vivec)


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Makes sense to me. I mean, think of this in a Dunmer/Chimer only perspective: if Vivec had not become a god, then the Dunmer would have still been Chimer and would have fought the Empire to the last until the entire Dunmer culture was destroyed. From an Imperial perspective, if the Dunmer are all dead, when the Akaviri invade everyone died and rather than have an Akaviri potentate, they are ruled by Akavir. And then there may have been motives Vivec may have been able to discern, even if only in hindsight after becoming a god, that he learned of by being a god and not existing in the same sense as a mortal mind.


Okay though, first off I have a coulpa questions in general as a classic anti-Vivec guy. Aside from the things Vivec himself, a known and professed liar, scemer and rogue, says about there being two split realities, where do we get all the split reality stuff? (and don't say anything about the Water Mask thing, because who exactly says that it enforces truth? And wouldn't a god be able to bypass even the most powerful magicks?)

Also another thing that we may be overlooking: Vivec is in fact a god, no matter how you believe he came to be that way (leeching the power of the heart in one reality, having always been a god in another, CHIM or whatever else people have come up with these days). That is not a disputed idea. As such, we may find ourselves in the same rut that we do in many threads about daedra: would not a god, be he real or artificial, be fundamentally different in his or her thought processes, emotions, and understanding of events and as such act in ways considered strange, unnatural or immoral by those who'se minds are bound by the way mortal minds function?

I am often unclear, so let me try to go a little bit more into clear, consise detail. Elves, humans, necromancers and ystics all live different lengths. Humans for less than the rest, elves in the middle, and with necromancers and other wizards at the longest, living thousands of years agelessly (vampires also live technically forever, but that is a whole other can of worms as to wether thier minds function like a human). All four of those listed have some difference in society and personal interpretation due to time, like how humans tend to move faster, do more, and bang more people in a shorter amount of time than elves because they have less of it. while the habits of elves are different due to society, the way thier thought proecesses work are much the same fundamentally. However a god, a being who was born (or made, or spawned, however) with the knowledge that in some form or another it will always "be" will always be different in the fundamental way it's mind works. So even if Vivec has a 'true" nature, it may be impossible for us as readers or our various characters as people to understand the way he works inside his head bacause he is so not like normal beings.

Do you think this happened to Seht and Ayem too?

It is known that Vehk was the first to reach into the heart, which burnt his hands black. (What the relationship to Wraithguard is, I do not know.) If it is true that Vehk then became what he wished to be, then he became one with Ayem and Seht as ALMSIVI.

ALMSIVI is the marriage of three entities into one, while murdering their independence.

EDIT: Let me restate one point from above: Vivec's hands were burnt black, and perhaps this is because the Tribunal did not know at that time how to use Wraithguard, for as one will recall, attempting to use Wraithguard without being taught by Vivec (and instead going to Yagrum Bagarn) causes an instant, and permanent, reduction in health. Perhaps this is the player's hands being "burnt"?

Yagrum Bagarn stated it as follows: "Do you know what this is? This is Wraithguard, an enchanted device created ages ago by my former master, High Craftlord Kagrenac, a long-dead Dwemer mage-smith. I believe it is one of the tools he created to forge mythopoeic enchantments. I was one of Lord Kagrenac's Master Crafters, and though I didn't work on this project, I knew of it from my fellow mage-smiths. ... I've studied Kagrenac's Planbook and Journals. I know what to do. The artifact simply must be harmonized with your personal magicka signature. However, the process is dangerous. You will certainly be injured. I am certain, however, that you will survive the process. Are you ready for me to activate Wraithguard and harmonize it to your magicka signature? ... Very well. [Yagrum Bagarn takes the unique Dwemer artifact, and performs a series of manipulations. He then returns it.] Now, the first time you equip Wraithguard, you will experience a terrible shock. If you are in perfect health, I am confident you will survive. But you may want to fortify your health as much as possible beforehand, just in case. Afterwards, Wraithguard should be working as designed, and everything will be fine. ... You have equipped Wraithguard and lived to tell about it. Congratulations. ... "


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Thank you WM. So, you say since Vehk reached the Heart first, his was the only desire to be set upon that "whole universe" which "swelled up to legitimize his throne?" Vivec was "superior" then?

What I'm getting at is, since there are Three, then three whole universes should have swelled up to legitimize three thrones. But we only get a description of Vehk's.

It seems to me that The Word Merchant is telling you that as a player/the Nerevarine - and therefore the reborn Spirit of Nerevar you have to decide for yourself what you want to believe and what is true. I love the way he presents his stuff and the quotes he comes up with.

However, it follows that whether or not you were in error is up to you. Have you considered that the sermons were written by a rogue, an assassin, and a liar of the first water?

So do you simply take them for absolute truth in the first instance because they were in a book?

They were written by the mer (or his followers in his name) who admits to having murdered 'you' in a previous life on the road to breaking a sacred oath that he gave into 'your' care. Next this Hermaphrodite married your widow who had conspired with 'him' to assassinate you. And 'he' also stole the life of a God that 'he' believed to be entirely corrupt (assuming Chimer like other mer considered Lorkhan to be corrupt) to raise himself as an example to rule over the people who birthed him. He uses metaphysical mumbo-jumbo to justify 'his' undoubted actions and you want to trust 'him'? Trust 'him' to do what?

What Vivec says 'he; has done is tell you 'he' would 'Muatra you to death' and Vivec says you said in response: 'fine, ok by me, I always wanted to go that way' - that makes 'him' innocent or trustworthy? Well, you will have to decide if that is what 'you as Nerevar' would have said. Trust is always a matter of choice. Personally I prefer not to trust Vivec to my death and I have no slightest wish nor desire to be Muatred by 'him'. Had Vivec said that to me when I was Hortator I would have cut 'his' head off for attempted assasination by sixual assault and treason. To each his own I guess.

What The Word Mechant has quoted is interesting as if you are the one who decides (as The Word Merchant says) then you are free to decide how far the ability of the Heart to effect change really goes in Vivec's hands. If Vivec could really create a new Universe then why leave all those untidy ends? Maybe because one demi-God who would-be God's new Universe is the same old thing from the point of a real God and from the point of view of anyone else in Tamriel who simply does not believe in 'him'.

When someone presents 'himself' as a liar then the listener must beware and only believe his own eyes and ears.

There is another detail there that bears consideration. If all the Chimer were turned into Dunmer at the same time then that must have happened at the instant Vivec 'blackened 'his' hands' as The Word Merchant presents it - but it appears according to Vivec that not all the Chimer were blackened in that instant - Vivec partially so and Almalexia not at all - and that one can say the whole thing happened sequentially. Other than the sage Divayth Fyr, who else was around? So I still prefer the theory that it was the direct actions of the Tribunal, that caused the blackening and that we have misinterpreted Azura's words on the subject.

With all due respect Word Merchant, this is your take on Vivec and is not canon according to Beth. What is canon is that Vivec is mentioned to be a hermaphrodite in the 36 lessons of Vivec.

This connundrum has not yet been addressed, although I agree that it is worth examining further, Lord Hyamentar.



I am humbled and appreciative, 1999. Thank you for your kind words.




Muthsera,

You should be lauded for standing strong by your convictions, for too many simply give up and give way in the face of popular opinion. Julianos himself is a god of Contradiction, so with that being said, let me examine your position while presenting mine.

It is true that Vivec is presented as a hermaphrodite. In Sermon 2, when Vivec is an egg, the egg is referred to as "it". The first time that Vivec is described as being a hermaphrodite is in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#8. However, also in that same Sermon, also in that same paragraph Vivec is represented by the male pronoun. Herein is the quote:

"Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the star-wounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the six-death of language and unique in all the middle world.

Thus we have our first established reference to Vivec as a hermaphrodite, but also being addressed as "he". However, is it possible that Vivec is addressed as "it" from that point on? Let us examine.

***************************************
From Sermon 1: He was born in the ash among the Velothi, anon Chimer, before the war with the northern men.

From Sermon 2: Along the journey many spirits came to see her and offer instructions to her son-daughter, the future glorious invisible warrior-poet of Vvardenfell, Vivec. ... It joined with the Daedroth and took its former secrets... (Herein lies a mixed gender reference and use of the gender neutral pronoun "it". However, does this gender neutrality persist, or does it get cast aside by Vivec? Let us press on.)

From Sermon 3: Vivec felt that his mother was afraid, and so consoled her.

From Sermon 4: Vivec knew that to retain his divinity that he must make a strong argument against luck.

From Sermon 5: Vivec had not been among his people all the days of his pre-life so he stayed silent and let the Chimer in the caravan think that the simulacrum was broken and empty.

From Sermon 6: The Son is myself, Vehk, and I am unto three, six, nine, and the rest that come after, glorious and sympathetic, without borders, utmost in the perfections of this world and the others, sword and symbol, pale like gold. (Notice here how Vivec expressly refers to himself as a male.)

From Sermon 7: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 8: "Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the star-wounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the six-death of language and unique in all the middle world.

From Sermon 9: Vivec had to stuff her mouth with his milk finger to keep her from singing Veloth into ruin.

From Sermon 10: [ Vivec is referred to only by Vivec's proper name. ]

From Sermon 11: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 12: Vivec had what he needed from the Daedroth and so married him that day.

From Sermon 13: He is to come as male or female. I am the form he must acquire. (Herein lies a basis for your desire for a gender-neutral pronoun, my friend.)

From Sermon 14: Vivec wept as he slew all those around him with his terrible new spear. He named it MUATRA...

From Sermon 15: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 16: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 17: With this, Vivec become greater than he had been.

From Sermon 18: Vivec understood that Ayem meant himself.

From Sermon 19: Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space...

From Sermon 20: The first monster was actually two, having been born twice like his mother-father, Vivec. (Another reference to different genders, however no use of "she" or "it" is used, but...) Vivec rose up in his giant-form, to be terrible to look upon.

From Sermon 21: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 22: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the second monster, which was called the Treasure Wood Sword.

From Sermon 23: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 24: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the third monster, called Horde Mountain.

From Sermon 25: He is in his pre-chimerical form, demonic VEHK, gaunt and pale and beautiful, skin stretched painfully thin on bird's bones, feathered serpents encircling his arms.

From Sermon 26: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the fourth monster, called The Pocket Cabal.

From Sermon 27: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 28: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the fifth monster, called The Ruddy Man.

From Sermon 29: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 30: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the sixth monster, called City-Face.

From Sermon 31: Vivec had tired of fighting his sons and daughters, and so took a respite from trying to find them.

From Sermon 32: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 33: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the seventh monster, called Lie Rock.

From Sermon 34: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the eighth and final and mightiest monster, called GULGA MOR JIL and more.

From Sermon 35: This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite. (Herein lies another use of the word "hermaphrodite", but notice how even when "God" is portrayed as being such, the male pronoun is still used.)

From Sermon 36: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

***************************************
Since you have correctly referred to offical canon by gamesas, I will refrain from utilizing any extraneous literature not included in official productions to further bolster my position, with said position being that Vivec, while no doubt being hermaphroditic, personally utilizes the male pronoun when referring to himself in official TES literature. While it may make sense for Vivec to be an "it", I cannot change what gamesas has adopted, and that adoption is the male pronoun for Vivec.

I look forward to your retort, muthsera, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos