The thing about Vivec is that he is a very deep character. That dosen't mean he has to be likeable.

On the one hand, he deeply loves his people, sacrificing his and thier pride to save them from extinction at the hands of Tiber Septim. On the other, he murdered his liege lored and dear friend, then stole his wife and broke a sacred oath to him. He is a warrior, but also a poet and politician. He is an artist and a businessman. He is even both a god and a mortal.

I think maybe even he dosen't really know which face is the true Vivec.

This connundrum has not yet been addressed, although I agree that it is worth examining further, Lord Hyamentar.



I am humbled and appreciative, 1999. Thank you for your kind words.




Muthsera,

You should be lauded for standing strong by your convictions, for too many simply give up and give way in the face of popular opinion. Julianos himself is a god of Contradiction, so with that being said, let me examine your position while presenting mine.

It is true that Vivec is presented as a hermaphrodite. In Sermon 2, when Vivec is an egg, the egg is referred to as "it". The first time that Vivec is described as being a hermaphrodite is in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#8. However, also in that same Sermon, also in that same paragraph Vivec is represented by the male pronoun. Herein is the quote:

"Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the star-wounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the six-death of language and unique in all the middle world.

Thus we have our first established reference to Vivec as a hermaphrodite, but also being addressed as "he". However, is it possible that Vivec is addressed as "it" from that point on? Let us examine.

***************************************
From Sermon 1: He was born in the ash among the Velothi, anon Chimer, before the war with the northern men.

From Sermon 2: Along the journey many spirits came to see her and offer instructions to her son-daughter, the future glorious invisible warrior-poet of Vvardenfell, Vivec. ... It joined with the Daedroth and took its former secrets... (Herein lies a mixed gender reference and use of the gender neutral pronoun "it". However, does this gender neutrality persist, or does it get cast aside by Vivec? Let us press on.)

From Sermon 3: Vivec felt that his mother was afraid, and so consoled her.

From Sermon 4: Vivec knew that to retain his divinity that he must make a strong argument against luck.

From Sermon 5: Vivec had not been among his people all the days of his pre-life so he stayed silent and let the Chimer in the caravan think that the simulacrum was broken and empty.

From Sermon 6: The Son is myself, Vehk, and I am unto three, six, nine, and the rest that come after, glorious and sympathetic, without borders, utmost in the perfections of this world and the others, sword and symbol, pale like gold. (Notice here how Vivec expressly refers to himself as a male.)

From Sermon 7: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 8: "Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the star-wounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the six-death of language and unique in all the middle world.

From Sermon 9: Vivec had to stuff her mouth with his milk finger to keep her from singing Veloth into ruin.

From Sermon 10: [ Vivec is referred to only by Vivec's proper name. ]

From Sermon 11: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 12: Vivec had what he needed from the Daedroth and so married him that day.

From Sermon 13: He is to come as male or female. I am the form he must acquire. (Herein lies a basis for your desire for a gender-neutral pronoun, my friend.)

From Sermon 14: Vivec wept as he slew all those around him with his terrible new spear. He named it MUATRA...

From Sermon 15: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 16: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 17: With this, Vivec become greater than he had been.

From Sermon 18: Vivec understood that Ayem meant himself.

From Sermon 19: Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space...

From Sermon 20: The first monster was actually two, having been born twice like his mother-father, Vivec. (Another reference to different genders, however no use of "she" or "it" is used, but...) Vivec rose up in his giant-form, to be terrible to look upon.

From Sermon 21: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 22: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the second monster, which was called the Treasure Wood Sword.

From Sermon 23: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 24: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the third monster, called Horde Mountain.

From Sermon 25: He is in his pre-chimerical form, demonic VEHK, gaunt and pale and beautiful, skin stretched painfully thin on bird's bones, feathered serpents encircling his arms.

From Sermon 26: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the fourth monster, called The Pocket Cabal.

From Sermon 27: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 28: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the fifth monster, called The Ruddy Man.

From Sermon 29: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 30: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the sixth monster, called City-Face.

From Sermon 31: Vivec had tired of fighting his sons and daughters, and so took a respite from trying to find them.

From Sermon 32: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 33: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the seventh monster, called Lie Rock.

From Sermon 34: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the eighth and final and mightiest monster, called GULGA MOR JIL and more.

From Sermon 35: This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite. (Herein lies another use of the word "hermaphrodite", but notice how even when "God" is portrayed as being such, the male pronoun is still used.)

From Sermon 36: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

***************************************
Since you have correctly referred to offical canon by gamesas, I will refrain from utilizing any extraneous literature not included in official productions to further bolster my position, with said position being that Vivec, while no doubt being hermaphroditic, personally utilizes the male pronoun when referring to himself in official TES literature. While it may make sense for Vivec to be an "it", I cannot change what gamesas has adopted, and that adoption is the male pronoun for Vivec.

I look forward to your retort, muthsera, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

This connundrum has not yet been addressed, although I agree that it is worth examining further, Lord Hyamentar.



I am humbled and appreciative, 1999. Thank you for your kind words.




Muthsera,

You should be lauded for standing strong by your convictions, for too many simply give up and give way in the face of popular opinion. Julianos himself is a god of Contradiction, so with that being said, let me examine your position while presenting mine.

It is true that Vivec is presented as a hermaphrodite. In Sermon 2, when Vivec is an egg, the egg is referred to as "it". The first time that Vivec is described as being a hermaphrodite is in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#8. However, also in that same Sermon, also in that same paragraph Vivec is represented by the male pronoun. Herein is the quote:

"Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the star-wounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the six-death of language and unique in all the middle world.

Thus we have our first established reference to Vivec as a hermaphrodite, but also being addressed as "he". However, is it possible that Vivec is addressed as "it" from that point on? Let us examine.

***************************************
From Sermon 1: He was born in the ash among the Velothi, anon Chimer, before the war with the northern men.

From Sermon 2: Along the journey many spirits came to see her and offer instructions to her son-daughter, the future glorious invisible warrior-poet of Vvardenfell, Vivec. ... It joined with the Daedroth and took its former secrets... (Herein lies a mixed gender reference and use of the gender neutral pronoun "it". However, does this gender neutrality persist, or does it get cast aside by Vivec? Let us press on.)

From Sermon 3: Vivec felt that his mother was afraid, and so consoled her.

From Sermon 4: Vivec knew that to retain his divinity that he must make a strong argument against luck.

From Sermon 5: Vivec had not been among his people all the days of his pre-life so he stayed silent and let the Chimer in the caravan think that the simulacrum was broken and empty.

From Sermon 6: The Son is myself, Vehk, and I am unto three, six, nine, and the rest that come after, glorious and sympathetic, without borders, utmost in the perfections of this world and the others, sword and symbol, pale like gold. (Notice here how Vivec expressly refers to himself as a male.)

From Sermon 7: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 8: "Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the star-wounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the six-death of language and unique in all the middle world.

From Sermon 9: Vivec had to stuff her mouth with his milk finger to keep her from singing Veloth into ruin.

From Sermon 10: [ Vivec is referred to only by Vivec's proper name. ]

From Sermon 11: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 12: Vivec had what he needed from the Daedroth and so married him that day.

From Sermon 13: He is to come as male or female. I am the form he must acquire. (Herein lies a basis for your desire for a gender-neutral pronoun, my friend.)

From Sermon 14: Vivec wept as he slew all those around him with his terrible new spear. He named it MUATRA...

From Sermon 15: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 16: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 17: With this, Vivec become greater than he had been.

From Sermon 18: Vivec understood that Ayem meant himself.

From Sermon 19: Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space...

From Sermon 20: The first monster was actually two, having been born twice like his mother-father, Vivec. (Another reference to different genders, however no use of "she" or "it" is used, but...) Vivec rose up in his giant-form, to be terrible to look upon.

From Sermon 21: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 22: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the second monster, which was called the Treasure Wood Sword.

From Sermon 23: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 24: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the third monster, called Horde Mountain.

From Sermon 25: He is in his pre-chimerical form, demonic VEHK, gaunt and pale and beautiful, skin stretched painfully thin on bird's bones, feathered serpents encircling his arms.

From Sermon 26: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the fourth monster, called The Pocket Cabal.

From Sermon 27: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 28: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the fifth monster, called The Ruddy Man.

From Sermon 29: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 30: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the sixth monster, called City-Face.

From Sermon 31: Vivec had tired of fighting his sons and daughters, and so took a respite from trying to find them.

From Sermon 32: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

From Sermon 33: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the seventh monster, called Lie Rock.

From Sermon 34: From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the eighth and final and mightiest monster, called GULGA MOR JIL and more.

From Sermon 35: This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite. (Herein lies another use of the word "hermaphrodite", but notice how even when "God" is portrayed as being such, the male pronoun is still used.)

From Sermon 36: [ Vivec is not referred to by a gender-based pronoun. ]

***************************************
Since you have correctly referred to offical canon by gamesas, I will refrain from utilizing any extraneous literature not included in official productions to further bolster my position, with said position being that Vivec, while no doubt being hermaphroditic, personally utilizes the male pronoun when referring to himself in official TES literature. While it may make sense for Vivec to be an "it", I cannot change what gamesas has adopted, and that adoption is the male pronoun for Vivec.

I look forward to your retort, muthsera, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Eight

And presently Nerevar and Vivec were within sight of the capital and the Four Corners of the House of Troubles knew that it was not time to contest them. The caravan musicians made a great song of entrance and the eleven gates of the Mourning Hold were thrown wide.

Ayem was accompanied by her husband-state, a flickering image that was channeled to her ever-changing female need. Around her were the Shouts, a guild now forgotten, who carried with them the whims of the people, for the Velothi then were still mostly good at heart. The Shouts were the counselors of Ayem and the country, though they sometimes quarreled and needed Seht to wring them into usefulness. Ayem approached Nerevar, who was by now adorned in the flags of House Indoril. He gifted her with the simulacrum of the netchiman's wife and the egg of Vivec inside.

Ayem said to Nerevar, 'Seht who is Azura has revealed that war is come and that the Hortator that shall deliver us will approach with a solution walking at his side.'

Nerevar said, 'I have traveled out of my way to warn you of the deceit of our enemies, the Dwemer, but I have learned much on the journey and have changed my mind. This netchiman's wife you see at my side is a sword and a symbol and there is prophecy inside. It tells me that, like it, we must for awhile be like he is and, as a people, cloaked in our former enemies, and to use their machines without shame.'

At which Vivec spoke aloud, 'Boethiah-who-is-you wore the skin of Trinimac to cleanse the faults of Veloth, my Queen, and so it should be again. This is the walking way of the glorious.'

Seht appeared out of a cloud of iron vapor and his minions made of their blood a chair. He sat beside Ayem and looked on the rebirth of mastery.

Vivec said to them, his Triune:

'My rituals and ordeals and all the rhymes within,
Use no other motive than the revelation of my skin.'

Ayem said, 'AYEM AE SEHTI AE VEHK. We are delivered and made whole, the diamond of the Black Hands is uncovered.'

Seht said, 'Wherever so he treads, there is invisible scripture.'

To which the Shouts were silent in sudden reading.

Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the star-wounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the six-death of language and unique in all the middle world.

He said, 'Let us now guide the hands of the Hortator in war and its aftermath. For we go different, and in thunder. This is our destiny.'

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

Ah, Word Merchant you pick your truths selectively I see. Actually in Sermon 8 this is what i says:

:grad:

Please permit me to observe that unless Vivec is referring to 'himself' as if he were a second party commenting then little or none of this was written by Vivec. So how does this tell us what Vivec says?

Rather it leads me to believe that Vivec is hiding his own nature behind the words of another who appeares to be very confused about Vivec's actual nature.

Ah, Word Merchant you pick your truths selectively I see. Actually in Sermon 8 this is what i says:

[snip]

:grad:

You quoted the Sermon Eight, yet nowhere in this sermon is to Vivec referred to as "it", but several times is used the pronoun "he/him".

1999,

Vivec wrote his 36 Lessons firsthand. We know this because of the "hidden message" derived from Sermon 29, which reads "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

The hidden message nicely answers both issues, with those issues being:

1. Is Vivec referring to himself in third person as the true author of the Lessons? The answer there is "yes".
2. Does Vivec voluntarily utilize the male pronoun while being hermaphroditic? The answer there is "yes".



Muthsera,

I am laboring under the assumption that we both agree that Vivec is a hermaphrodite. I do not contest that Vivec is the "union of male and female". Vivec is, most certainly, both male and female in nature. However, I thought that I was answering your assertion that calling Vivec a "he" or referring to Vivec as "him" was wrong, and that, as you seem to assert, only the word "it" is proper when it comes to offical gamesas canon.

Therefore, please clarify what your position is. Thus to you I ask: "Is it your position that only the pronoun "it" should be used to refer to the hermaphrodite Vivec in order to be consistent with official Beth canon?"

Now let me state my axioms:

1. Vivec is a hermaphrodite.

2. Vivec is consistently referred to by the male pronoun, both personally and by third persons in official books.

3. Vivec has been referred to as "it", but only before he was born while still an egg-universe.

4. The proper pronoun to use, solely by following suit with gamesas, is "he" or "him", unless referring to the pre-birth Vivec egg-universe.

What say you, jagartharn?



___The Word Merchant of Julianos



Thank you, DarkRalen, for spotting the crux of the issue. May JHUNAL illuminate your searches.

1999,

Vivec wrote his 36 Lessons firsthand. We know this because of the "hidden message" derived from Sermon 29, which reads "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

The hidden message nicely answers both issues, with those issues being:

1. Is Vivec referring to himself in third person as the true author of the Lessons? The answer there is "yes".
2. Does Vivec voluntarily utilize the male pronoun while being hermaphroditic? The answer there is "yes".



Muthsera,

I am laboring under the assumption that we both agree that Vivec is a hermaphrodite. I do not contest that Vivec is the "union of male and female". Vivec is, most certainly, both male and female in nature. However, I thought that I was answering your assertion that calling Vivec a "he" or referring to Vivec as "him" was wrong, and that, as you seem to assert, only the word "it" is proper when it comes to offical gamesas canon.

Therefore, please clarify what your position is. Thus to you I ask: "Is it your position that only the pronoun "it" should be used to refer to the hermaphrodite Vivec in order to be consistent with official Beth canon?"

Now let me state my axioms:

1. Vivec is a hermaphrodite.

2. Vivec is consistently referred to by the male pronoun, both personally and by third persons in official books.

3. Vivec has been referred to as "it", but only before he was born while still an egg-universe.

4. The proper pronoun to use, solely by following suit with gamesas, is "he" or "him", unless referring to the pre-birth Vivec egg-universe.

What say you, jagartharn?



___The Word Merchant of Julianos



Thank you, DarkRalen, for spotting the crux of the issue. May JHUNAL illuminate your searches.

Word Merchant, what I was trying to prove to you is that Vivec is in fact a hermaphrodite, and I think that "it" should be the proper pronoun when referring to Vivec. I mean why call something a hermaphrodite then refer to said thing as "him" or "her" when the more correct pronoun would be "it" or "shim". The reason I put emphasis on him being hermaphrodite is that you nor any one in this thread has referred to him as such.

Why should we refer to Vivec as "it" when no one in the Elder Scrolls universe call him this way (even Vivec himself). btw: even you use "him".

Word Merchant, what I was trying to prove to you is that Vivec is in fact a hermaphrodite,

and I think that "it" should be the proper pronoun when referring to Vivec.

I mean why call something a hermaphrodite then refer to said thing as "him" or "her" when the more correct pronoun would be "it" or "shim". The reason I put emphasis on him being hermaphrodite is that you nor any one in this thread has referred to him as such.

The Word Merchant I suspect that although you have made your point re the usual pronoun to be used to refer to Vivec - you may have been ignoring other matters along the way. Regarding your quote of Sermon 29 - that is known to me - however it might also have either been written by someone who simply referred to a specific quote from Vivec rather than the whole of the Sermons, or by someone who wanted to claim a provenance for his writings or an association with Vivec that he did not have until after they were written. Thereafter it has to be said that Vivec lent credence to what was written in that he made no effort to deny any of it and permitted the Temple to distribute them. But all that remains proven by the matters mentioned here is that these are texts put about by the Temple in Morrowind as representing Vivec.

The fact that they are Sermons should be sufficient to establish that the reader is intended to accept they have Vivec's blessing and are written around things that Vivec said. That is enough for me.

Please forgive my entirely cautious approach to this. As a character and a player I can enjoy these and even submerge myself in their content experientially, but as a commentator on them as books, their content and the society in which they are presented I feel the need to stand back a bit and offer a degree of scepticism as to their exact provenance and meaning.

If you then bring to mention things said by Vivec when he met the Nerevarine I would tactfully suggest that during that meeting Vivec admitted lying as a matter of policy and so what makes his conversation with the Nerevarine any different?

Once again it has to be accepted that Vivec represents himself as the replacement for Mephala - so therefore Vivec represents what Mephala represents except that Mephala was Daedra and Vivec apparently was not. I do believe that Mephala is about plots, lies and murder ... enough said?

Muthsera jagartharn,

It has been a delight engaging you in conversation, for even though we have been on different sides of the debate, you have utilized the utmost in courtesy and civility whilst presenting your points, and for that both you and Julianos (from whom we receive the very contradictions that give rise to debate) should be praised.

I shall respond to your own response in fragments, for each piece deserves attention. Thus, we proceed...



And lo, we find ourselves in agreement. The crossroads of our points, the intersection of our debate has been achieved herein. Vivec is both male and female in form. Praise JHUNAL.



I agree again, Vivec should be called an "it".



I agree again. We even have precedence showing the use of "it" in a similar fashion in that Mephala, the Anticipation of Vivec, is oftentimes referred to as an "it", so why not continue on in the same line of thinking, especially when, like the Webspinner Itself, Vivec is also hermaphroditic? Unfortunately, I have not the answer, only the plethora of sources that repeatedly utilize "him" when referring to the Invisible Warrior-Poet of Vvardenfell. I call Vivec a "him" out of following suit with the majority of gamesas publications.

It seems, jagartharn, that our positions are similar in substance, though the form taken by others' reference to Vivec has caused our stir.



1999,

Also to you can the praises of resolute perseverance be hung upon, and while it is true that someone without any true knowledge of the character of Vivec may have been the author of the Sermons, we have no evidence truly suggesting such. We must develope hypotheses and theories based upon objective evidence and not let ourselves be weighted down by the quagmire of imagination, especially in the world of myth and magick where, as Vivec himself ( :shrug: ) stated, ideas can become so real as to be dangerous.

Vivec has stated that they are his Sermons. I cannot find a reason to believe that the Sermons of Vivec were written by someone who did not have a competent understanding of the Warrior-Poet.

It is my belief that Vivec wrote the Sermons personally, referring to himself in third person and taking the masculine pronoun voluntarily. The Sermons refer to the Universe of his creation, which resulted from his theft of the godhood and have no relation to the Universe in which the mortal Vivec murdered Indoril Nerevar.

Neither I nor my positions claim to be infallible, and I always enjoy the Holy Contradictions presented by vigorous debate. I thank the both of you for engaging as it were. May JHUNAL bless and illuminate your searches, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

That is why, and me calling it "him" was a simple mistake.

Correct me if I am wrong (english isn't my native language) but gramatical and biological gender doesn't have to be the same.

Muthsera DarkRalen,

Grammar in English requires that a male be referred to as "he" or "him", and to utilize "she" or "her" in reference to such a male is patently confusing and per se incorrect. The use of the impersonal pronoun "it" is utilized when referencing non-persons, such as places, things, etc.

Thus we have, for good or ill, an onus upon the speaker to know the gender of the subject. However, when we deal with an individual of unknown, dubious, or outright mixed gender, there is no established rule in the English language for which pronoun to use. In fact, many statutes in the United States of America (and the two individual states with whom I am familiar, Tennessee and Virginia) expressly state that when "him" or "he" is used, that such pronoun can apply equally to a woman. Thus it actually takes up space making sure the reader understands that, else the jury instructions from the aggravated arson trial that I put on a week and a half ago (and received a "Not Guilty" for my client, btw :celebration: ) would have limited the jury to convicting a man, not my female defendant.

Section 1.04 of the Tennessee Pattern Criminal Jury Instructions state:
*************
T.P.I.?Crim. 1.04 Gender


Whenever the word "he" is used in these instructions, you may consider it as applying equally to a woman or an entity such as a corporation.
*************

Therefore, to disregard the gender of the subject when utilizing pronouns would not only be error, but would also cause confusion-in-fact amongst any listeners.

I hope that this helps, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Heh - congrats (accepting that your client was in fact innocent) and I hope that the victims of the crime will receive true justice and find peace therewith in time and all the facts of whatever really occurred be made clear. However it has to be said that what may be law in a few states in the USA is not law in other states and in other countires may be far from the law.

Back to Tamriel I think there is a point here where we will have to agree on some things and to disagree on others.

When you say that Vivec is referred to in the Sermons as he/him and that there are quotes from Vivec in some or many then that is fine by me. It is self evident.

If you tell me that Vivec's word is to be trusted then we must disagree because I believe that the essence of the rogue is to bend the truth at the very least.

Rogues break the law, bend the truth, steal and murder. They do this by nature and habitually. That is the nature of Mephala and if Vivec has taken over her role in fact or in intent then he has to act as Mephala - so who would trust his words?

What I havelearned from Vivec is that Vivec mixes truth and lies. So 'his' writings are full of fascinating anecdote with wild tales and also likely contain information that is potentially useful but they are fundamentally untrustworthy. They do not prove the truth of what is in them - but they serve to lead the alert and intelligent reader on to question and to discover more.

Again I commend you to the conversations to be had with Vivec himself in his Sanctum in which he admits to the player character that the 'official' writings of the Temple are 'not entirely accurate' and that he could not permit the writings of the Dissident Priests to be distributed because they would cause alarm amongst the general populace. That admission in itself ought to ring alarm bells.

All this is in addition to the obvious, accepted and established cultural bias that makes the claims of any one race subject to interpretation according to the truths that are equally self-evident in the writings, doings and events to be observed in the Provinces of other races.

What makes it so difficult to determine 'the Truth' is that it is likely that the nature of 'reality' actually differs in different Provinces according to the relative dominance, strength and nature of the beliefs of the various races in that local.

However, if you are totally under the spell of Vivec's charm and unwilling to see this then I understand. The guy is insidious but I prefer the view of the Dissident Priests. In short Vivec is powerful, but might is not right - or at least not the whole story 'according to the scrolls'.

I was reading a book in Morrowind, where a Guar and Kagouti were talking about who was uglier. Then Vivec appears out of no where and says something about how both of them are the ugliest creatures in all of the land, and then smashed their skulls in. This story makes me think he's gone mad like Almalexia. What are your opinions on Vivec and his true personality.

Vivec is greedy with power and deserves death for his actions. Even if he's sorry for what he did it's a little to late. Sorry or not death should be his destiny.

Vivec is greedy with power and deserves death for his actions.

He killed nerevar.

He killed nerevar.