Problem is that i do not have the Gladiator.esp installed, i have the following installed:

*Waalx Animals & Creatures.esm
*WAC.esp
*WAC - Crowded Roads Revisited.esp
*WAC - Dead Knights.esp
*WAC - Magic.esp
*WAC - OverSpawn.esp
*WAC - Player Summons.esp
*WAC - TCOS Shops.esp
*WAC - TCOS.esp

In TES4Edit i have no idea how to add a mesh to the VampireRace, actually i can not find the VampireRace in TES4Edit. In the CS it shows that the Vampire Race has the imperial human eyes nif left and right. When i need to do stuff like this i get some what nervous about messing things up completely. :wacko:


EDIT: Whoohoo, by removing all race entries from the TCOS.esp i whas finally able to build my Bashed Patch. Now i just have to pray that nothing else happens. :bowdown:

Yeah that is the old fix ... just not sure if now those race records are needed.

Waalx says he will be back again in January with better documentation and another version.

In the meantime I guess we had better figure out if those races are needed.

Figured I'd re-post what I posted on the WAC forums here aswell, since it's a needed temp-fix for this particular esp until Waalx fixes it in January:



Ofcourse you can just skip using the esp alltogether since it only affects visuals, and alot of people might even prefer to use the standard look for the Imperial Guard. But for those of us who like this change, simply follow the above.

How's compatibility with various other things (DLC, OOO, MMM, popular quests, BBC, UL, etc.) ?

There was a compatability patch for OOO with the old 0.05 alpha, I highly doubt it works anymore however. This is a complete overhaul though, so I don't see a problem in them not being compatible. BBC should work just fine as far as I know, and (most of) UL aswell. With 0.05 there was issues with Dark Forest (sorted by loading Dark Forest below WAC, which BOSS should fix by itself anyway) and Lost Coast, patch available here: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34607

No idea if there are any new issues with the ULs etc with the new version yet, as I'm still in the process of finishing that install.

It is in essence an overhaul on par with OOO+MMM. More MMM though.

It has a lot of unique creatures and models and armors and weapons. Some amazing looking, the creature AI and behavior is also top notch. With the latest Beta the size has grown by another half gig now around 1.65 gigs in size.

Waalx has stated that in the end it is not meant to supplement FCOM or OOO and that it is going to be as they are - touching many things. As such it will conflict with those mods for certain. Not with DLC (what on earth conflicts with DLC?) or BC or UL (there is a Lost coast patch out there). It adds goblin camps and a few mods conflict with those (Hammerfel and Shezrie Towns).

The short answer is no it is not compatible with other overhauls, but if you are savy with wrye bash then yes you can but it comes down to choices. There is an OOO patch for the alpha, but with the new release not sure if it is up to date. Much like OOO and MMM and Frans need patches to work together - but I'd venture to say that this needing of patches is for those who want 100% performance from mods. If, for instance, you are ok with one small selection of creatures types not showing when they are supposed to then wrye bash can go a long way.

Some don't need patching much - look at TIE-Frans patch - not extensive. Patching with FCOM though can be extraneous.

The Alpha was unleveled in its encounters and so I combined it with TIE which also is unleveled and because TIE touched many game settings related to things that WAC didn't so much like game settings, stats of weapons, etc. But it looks as though it now has some leveling and yet still as far as game settings - nothing near TIE. So if Frans and TIE work well together then I'm going to keep on using this and TIE together.

Waalx stated another update in January, but this is huge already. It has issues and we are reporting them on his forum as we find them.

Talk about a triumphant return.

Plenty the earth has been known to. Ever seen a patch for, say, KotN? Thought so. So... hence it (by extention, they) was (were) included in my question.

But thanks for the answer. Informative as ever.

Cheers.

Not to split hairs but patch for KotN - only for overhauls and really only to make the content of KotN conform to overhaul stats and standards ... FCOM, MMM, etc.

Same with SI.

But I get your point - just that most DLC patches I've seen are for using DLC content not prevent breaking it.

What I did to fix the bashed patch issue with Vampire / Beastmaster races:

Open the files in TES4Edit and go to the races section. Find ENAM - Eyes near the bottom. (For the beastmaster race make sure "Hide no conflict rows" is NOT activated).

For the beastmaster race, simply delete the line:

eyeVampireYellowWAC "Eye Vampire" [EYES:01006955]

OR

change that line to read:

eyeVampire "eyeVampire" [EYES:0003B379]

For the vampire race, copy over the original value from oblivion.esm, that is:

eyeVampire "eyeVampire" [EYES:0003B379]

And also delete the same value you deleted from the beastmaster race. This way you get the keep the races but with the eyes changed so that wrye bash works. This is ofcourse a temporary fix like the one I posted for WAC - Legion.esp above, but something that works until it's officially fixed.

NOTE: I have not actually encountered an npc of the vampire or beastmaster races ingame after making these changes, so there might be graphical anomalities. There shouldn't be however, especially not for the vampire race since it simply reverts back to the eyes normally used without WAC. The bashed patch does compile just fine even with TRAP.esp active and checked under Race Records atleast with this change.

Forgot to ask in the previous post with the fix (for the record, went to the arena since just to check and it seemed to have worked perfectly).. but does anyone have any ideas for bash tags to use on the esm/esps? Some of them have tags (TCOS, OverSpawn, TCOS Shops) but the rest don't. And those tags might be from the 0.05 alpha too if BOSS added them and might need to be looked at again, I wouldn't know.

Psymon, I remember you posting something about copying bash tags from MMM to the WAC-files with the 0.05 alpha, but I couldn't find it now. Did that work out well, and have you tried it with the new beta?

I just discovered a conflict between the Latest WaC and Povuholo's KDQ. The West-Bay Camp is right smack in front of the Dwarven house from KDQ. The Dwarven house can be reached and all, but some tents Fires and the likes from the camp are partially in the ground.

EDIT: Made a few screenshots

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/WAC/WestBayCamp01.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/WAC/WestBayCamp02.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/WAC/WestBayCamp03.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/WAC/WestBayCamp04.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/WAC/WestBayCamp05.jpg

This one whas pretty weird, i could see the dagger but not take it. Eventhough out in the open so to speak, i found out that the dagger was still part of the Goblins inventory. After i took the dagger out of the Goblins inventory it was gone from the air.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Illius_photos/Mod%20Problems/WAC/WestBayCamp06.jpg

Actually I ended up using the tags suggested by anohosikara on the WAC forum. He made the fixes that came out a few weeks back for the alpha .... from his readme (without his fix esp):

Waalx Animals & Creatures.esm		WAC - Crowded Roads Revisited.esp	TagsWAC.esp					        TagsWAC - OverSpawn.esp			Tags	Delev?ERelev?EGraphicsWAC - TCOS.esp				Tags	Delev?ERelev?EGraphics?EInvent?EActors.ACBS?EActors.StatsWAC - BlackBootDungeon.esp		TagsWAC - Dead Knights.esp			TagsWAC - Magic.esp				TagsWAC - Player Summons.esp		Tags

I would not call it exhaustive and as you pointed out with the legion.esp that importing graphics works for that one.

I would not be surprised if the magic and player summons esp need spell oriented tags - haven't looked there though.

Alright, thanks. Most of those were already added, not sure if that came with the files or if BOSS added them - but added delev to OverSpawn and TCOS and the Actor.ACBS etc. Not sure if it will make a difference, but if it worked with 0.05 it should most likely be safe still.

As for the magic/player summon yeah I was thinking the same thing, but I'm not quite sure what as I haven't looked at the files and what they add. Since I'm not a modder I'm not really good at this stuff, but if I run into some problems while finally playtesting properly I guess I'll try some different tags out that makes sense

Well tags should be added as needed - so look in edit and if they add spells to beasts that are altered by other mods (different stats by other mods) then add tags and such.

I wouldn't do it unless you find a reason.

I'm not a modder either - but that doesn't stop you or me from figuring stuff out.

Indeed - but the tags and the conditions in when they are needed is still quite confusing to me. I usually go with trial and error when I notice something isn't working before I ask questions, and ask if I can't figure it out, but with overhauls there's alot more to consider than with smaller mods.

For example the Gladiator mod that came with WAC is released without any bash tags. It adds several scripts, and also edits several scripts from the Oblivion.esm that have to do with the Arena. In my load order, no other mods would touch this stuff as far as I'm aware. In this example, would adding the Script tag make any difference at all? While it's a real example, it's more to help me understand the mechanics of when adding certain tags might be needed.

My gut tells me it shouldn't be needed in this particular case, but I don't mind being proven wrong.

I don't import scripts when I rebuild my Bash patches. As of yet I haven't noticed any problems.

These don't alter any stock resources except for the Minotaur Headbutt spell and a few cells that have additions. No Bash tags required; no benefit from tagging.

Hm okay, I've been following the guidelines on Tomlongs site for what to import and not import. Which means I import everything available to me from mods (except OOO in Factions/relations if using FCOM or MMMforOOO). I skip FormID and the extra names csv's for mods I don't have etc, but pretty much everything else I import.



That's the info I used as a guideline when I started learning wrye bash and have stuck to pretty much all of it I believe



Yeah, just noticed that when going through the esp's now. Am looking at the WAC - Horses.esp currently, and it seems it needed a Graphics tag to fully import all the new models into the bashed patch (Unicorn for example was rewritten with the original nif-info from Oblivion.esm without this tag).

Anything you've noticed for other WAC files that it could be worth tagging?

Well the import everything attitude is correct when considering that the FCOM centric overhauls (and now TIE too under Arthmoor) were designed to be tagged and as such the authors themselves advocated tagging and commented BOSS thusly.

For the general theory of tags though the idea is that if a later loading mod would win a conflict over a record in an esp and you don't want that then the records that can be tagged will carry forward regardless. That way the other esp can still load later (so all the other records can win or whatever other reason) and the first esp will still have the needed record in tact. Not all tags are necessary under all circumstances (such as death items on Warcry when using FCOM).

I've seen Vacuity post rather sternly that it could be hazardous to misuse tags or add them when not needed. This may be more true of complex overhaul combining as with FCOM/COBL/Item Integration. I'm not sure how drastic it ever could be except things don't show up right until you rebash your patch. I doubt it would do anything on the order of save game damage and at most it might mess up quest stages. Certainly the mod makers who have hovered around here and embraced Wrye Bash have benefited the most from it. But I remember FCOM when there was what like - no tagging, or very few. it worked. Again I think that 90% functioning on combining overhauls with lists is pretty damn good. Duke taught me that - if you can get it working most - 95% of the time then it is satisfactory. He pointed out that modders will scrap entire approaches and methods because they can't get 100%.

Now if I were a modder and could see that encounter type A-5 (or whatever) was not being fully expressed in-game due to another overhaul I could see wanting to make sure that it got that expression and would either patch it to do so or tweak the tags. But even in that biases can be made - look at FCOM. Basically it is bending things to match OOO framework with MMM having dominance. If Francesco were around and cared and/or L@zarus cared enough then there might be impassioned posts to stop that tendency.

Some work better under different circumstances and I think it is now apparent that Waalx works really well alone. I don't think Waalx even uses a bashed patch, but I could be wrong. If that is the case then the esp are not tailored as such and so probably best to lean toward not using them unless really needed. But that is just conjecture and once and if he returns again we can ask more questions of him directly. What I want to be careful to avoid is what might look like demands for overahul combining. I've seen some say "no I don't want my work watered down" and that is of course their choice but a lot more than overhauls use leveled lists and even the best designed overhauls still aren't total conversions that cover every inch of what the game can do. So while I want to respect the work of modders it is a modable game and as such no one mod is going to cover all the things I want to change the way I want to change them and certainly with the available mods around to change them.

Sorry I digress - my point is have patience we will figure it out and don't be surprised if it is you that heads that as the author may have no interest in going there with the overhaul.

I see what you're saying, and I can understand the reasoning for FCOM etc making use of so many bash-tags. Also WAC is after all just out of alpha a few days ago, and it's the first beta-release. Compatability is most likely quite low on the list of priorities, and I don't mind that at all. I also don't want to try to force it to work with another overhaul, the game I'm setting up with the new WAC will have WAC as the only major overhaul - but I do intend to use a lot of other mods, and if we can figure out which tags can be helpful in making WAC work better along with other mods then I believe we help Waalx aswell in the long run if he intends to go that route eventually (although I believe he has a fairly good idea when it comes to the popular mods atleast).

About the quote from your post I saved here, I don't really mind that since going through the esps and working things out help me understand the way the mods work and what they actually include much better. I used fo3edit alot when playing Fallout 3 for the same reason.

From what I've concluded now after carefully checking the esps, not much had to be added tag-wise to WAC. The tags you re-posted previously along with the graphics tag for WAC - Horses and WAC - Legion seems to have fixed the issues I could discover atleast. Ofcourse there is a good possibility I missed something, but it's not gamebreaking in any way so there's no rush for any further tags from my end - reason I' asked is because I know there are others with more knowledge on how this works and sometimes people find things out and forget to share.

I'd do:

WAC.esp
{{BASH:Graphics}}

WAC - OverSpawn.esp
{{BASH:Actors.ACBS,Actors.Spells,Delev,Graphics,Invent}}

WAC - TCOS.esp
{{BASH:Eyes,Graphics,Invent,NPC.Race,R.Teeth}}

WAC - Horses.esp
{{BASH:Delev,Graphics}}

WAC - Legion.esp
{{BASH:Graphics,Invent}}

WAC - Gladiator.esp
{{BASH:Actors.ACBS,Actors.AIData,Delev,Graphics,Invent}}


Nothing in WAC should need a Relev tag, and it shouldn't make any difference if you drop one in there somewhere.

WAC - TCOS will need to add a Face tag and T.I.E. will need to lose its Face tag if you want to keep the stock faces with WAC's beards and hair.

Really, though, only Graphics and Invent are important here.

What will that do the TNR information in TIE?

What if one also uses the stand alone TNR and import into bash or like I do which is to use the Race Balancing version (which often loads much later)?

Any chance to make WAC 1 beta work along with FCOM? A patch? A patch sacrificing the most conflicting bits and pieces? Like TIE4MODS which made TIE partly possible to play along with FCOM??

Well, as has been said a few posts up - there is an OOO patch for the alpha - you could grab it and compare what it changes in the alpha that may not be kosher with the beta and if not then you could try using that with OOO+MMM ... and as I wrote above things may not be working right.

But full FCOM integration - I'd think not without a patch or three. Last time I asked CorePC (and he was willing to communicate with me) he said it was not on his agenda and I don't blame him. I don't blame Waalx either for not focusing on compatibility, but I'd wait for the next release which may be due out in a month or so before doing serious patching.

Truthfully - I too was on who swore by FCOM and especially OOO and the work it does with factions. Having now played to about level 3 with 5x slower leveling in TIE-WAC game it is pretty damn cool and without a lot of the heavy load that FCOM can bring.

Best part -- with mTES4Manager I can now have three installs going at once (FCOM centric, TIE-WAC, and Nehrim) - it is not that hard to set up with the main prohibition being disc space. Especially for you who can say that they know a thing or two about installing this game.

I can play FCOM (just finished the main quest with that one) all I want and these other load orders too. With TIE-WAC I also have Johns leveled list overhaul and a few other list goodies that I don't have in the FCOM game + it allows me to try moar mods and I don't have to feel like everything has to be FCOM patched and fit into that one load order.

Thanks for the input, some things I didn't consider there. I did however try the Invent tag on OverSpawn earlier, and the problem I encountered was that it overwrote the package WAC - TCOS set up for the Highwaymen NPCs both files change. Not sure if that would matter in any way ofcourse. Also, noticed you skiped Delev tag for TCOS, you see no need for that there? I'm quite unsure as to when/where Delev/Relev tags are necessary, so insight would be great.