It's heartening to see some pen n paper dicerollers being so open minded about what makes an RPG. I always had the impression it was the crotchety old farts like us (Mudders/tabletop gamers) who were so mad about stat removal. But it turns out it's the younger opinionated players who seem to be so up in arms about Skyrim ditching it's clunky RPG aspects.

I've played them all. And when they first came out too. I've also played table top rpgs as well.

Try playing fallout 1 today and you will see through the smoke and mirrors. While there were some funny and witty and serious lines in there at the end of the day the story was largely the same. You could bump things around differently but the outcome was largely the same. The market for rpgs in the 90s was also way different than it is today. For better or worse.


EDIT
BTW fallout one was an awesome game. Played the heck out of it. At the end of the day I just don't see a "true" rpg coming out thats going to make everyone happy. From a business stand point, it just has to make "enough" people happy.

Fair enough, I havent played it in at least 4 years.. BG2 on the other hand I dont see through (too much) and I believe it's an RPG. But that's just me...

I'd say the Four archetypes of RPG's are:
1. The rigid linear story based JRPG (FF, Chrono Trigger)
2. The more nonlinear open world adventure games that haze the gray area (Deus Ex, Mass Effect)
3. And the Boots to satchel, Tabletop origins, tell your own story, build-a-hero workshop RPG's. (DnD, TES, WoW, (Fable?))
4. Crap (Fable III?)

There are categorical issues with the above (MMO's place in the scheme of things), but it points out the fact that a RPG has been a definition of widening berth over the years.

Lol sorry but saying football is for men isn't sixist, it's just a general observation. It's nitpicking and pedantry to claim otherwise.

But I'm gonna leave it here, since I don't want to derail this topic by going waay off topic.

Some of the best times I had playing D&D growing up were sessions with no combat. All 8 of us up at 3am and a single dice has not been rolled.

Wars were averted with words.
Bonds were forged with friendship.
Enemies were made with guile.

I agree numbers do not make the RPG.

The Baldur's gate Series was just plain fun some brutally hard fights that never seemed unfair. RPG argument aside it was a blast to play through. We tried loading it up at our last lan party and ended up playing Descent till 6 am on the kitchen table instead. We couldn't run it on any of the new computers!

Yeah, but it's not the numbers that are making it an RPG, it's the fact that you can develop a character and influence the change of said numbers, but traditional RP'ers have gotten so used to the idea of the numbers being what makes their character that they can't see it being an RPG without the numbers being visible.

Say for the next TES game Bethesda went a step further and made it so your character does clearly develop, they get better at things, gain special skills, basically you can do anything you can in Skyrim or Oblivion as far as character development is concerned, BUT, they made the entire numbers system that governs how your skills progress, how well you fare in combat etc. invisible to the player.

Of course there would be complaints that 'I have no stats, this isn't an RPG!!', but your character is still developing as they would with the stats. It's just not visible to the player so it is free to develop more naturally rather than this idea that there must be some arbitrary numbers to appease those who can't see past the underlying numbers game of RPGs.

To be honest I think this is the next step for RPGs, a game with all the character development of a traditional RPG, but rather than having to have pages of stats and skillsheets you just see that "I trained with swords for x hours, look how much better my character can use them, he's clearly a much more proficient warrior" rather than, "I trained with swords for x hours, my sword skill has gone up, that makes me better".

It'd be a long while till this point is reached however because I think it'd require a lot of in depth animation to help make it clear to the player how their skills are developing, you'd have to for example have a character with low level swordsmanship standing with sloppy posture, his sword held poorly, taking vague swings and stabs, and progress from that into the character standing ready when in combat, sword poised, making precise movements.

It'd progress the RPG genre from having to resort to numbers as a way to represent the development of a characters abilities to how well the character actually uses his abilities being the representation of his abilities, which is of course much more natural.

Everyones welcome to their opinions,

my even more elite group that predates computer rpgs had even more fun when we were "roleplaying" when the dice wasn't rolling. Sure getting a +3 Vorpal Longsword was always fun.

But so was trying to prove your innocence after getting caught red handed with the Dukes wife! :hubbahubba:

For me, an RPG should have choices, consequences and reactivity. Skyrim is more of an action adventure in that regard. I just got the innocence lost quest. What if I don't want to kill someone just because they aren't kind? Why can't I explain to this kid that I'm not from the dark brotherhood? Why can't I find a different home for him?

Mind you Skyrim is still better than most games this year, but not as good an rpg as New Vegas, in my opinion.

For me, an RPG should have choices, consequences and reactivity. Skyrim is more of an action adventure in that regard. I just got the innocence lost quest. What if I don't want to kill someone just because they aren't kind? Why can't I explain to this kid that I'm not from the dark brotherhood? Why can't I find a different home for him?

Mind you Skyrim is still better than most games this year, but not as good an rpg as New Vegas, in my opinion.

Get the GOG versions, I have them and they run flawlessly on every operating system I've tried including my current (Windows 7). Plus they are dirt cheap.

Lol one time my dwarf was chatting up some barmaid, he ended up getting drunk and passing out after he took her to bed. Turns out the barmaid was the daughter of the town mayor, and the locals were none too happy about a dwarf hitting on their womens. So he got packed into a barrel while he was sleeping it off, and thrown into a river. xD Luckily one of my party managed to find me and got me out, so alls well that ends well.

Oh yeah I forgot to add that our GM was a pretty evil guy, he'd play some mean tricks on us haha.

technically playing CoD is a role playing game >> u are playing the role of a soldier

That's exactly what I did.

You can explain to the kid that you're not from the Dark Brotherhood.

That's exactly what I did.

And when I investigated the orphanage and talked to her, I gave the woman a blank look of disappointment and condemnation. Yes, that was an RP choice. I didn't kill her, and I walked away, having expressed my disappointment in her actions. As someone who didn't want to kill her, I was pretty satisfied with the options given to me.

Choice is in Elder Scrolls. It's just never been in a BioWare "Do you make the good, bad, or anti-hero choice", blatantly hitting you in the face with a cast iron fry pan that you made a good, or evil choice.

Not knocking BioWare, I love their games, but Bethesda games have always had a different method of presenting their choice.

Real life doesn't hit you in the face with a "THIS IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF YOUR CHOICE", and neither does Elder Scrolls. I'm fine with it.

i agree with the OP
but i think most peoples veiw of what is an rpg is a bit far from the truth
R P G = Role playing Game....... Remember this...... Role!!!!!! <<<<< >>>>>Role
i wont write the definition of what role is... but if u are playing as a character reguardless is u customize them... u are playing a role
technically playing CoD is a role playing game >> u are playing the role of a soldier

putting labels on things just and then trying to debate what your version of that label means is a waste of time!!

Please send me a PM with the location.




Again not to derail but its sort of on subjection. Video games just won't be able to develop that kind of story with that kind of interaction and depth. At least not in my foresee able future.

By the way, why do non Dwarf women has such a fascination with Dwarf men? Perhaps not everything is proportional?

Here's the thing, to me a game is defined by what its main objective is.
COD is a FPS because it was designed with 'good' fps elements as its priority. You can role play as much as you want (I dont think people do often..).
Buldars Gate was designed with Role Playing as its main Priority.
With Skyrim, I believe that they put more time and effort into the combat, by far, than the role playing elements and this is why I don't believe it to be a role playing game. You can role play in it, it's just a little bit more difficuilt than it could have been. I see it as a fun Dungeon Crawler/Action Adventure.

And herein lies the problem and the glory with the internet. The guy next to you (not me per se) sees it as an RPG by his standards. That leaves us?....

It's true that videogames will never replicate those awesome moments you get while playing a tabletop game with your friends, but that's not such a bad thing. If pen n paper is what people enjoy, then it keeps them playing together and socializing. Sadly our group no longer gets together, which is the main reason I ended up playing videogames which is yeah a bit less of a social experience.

However videogames have their own strengths as well, like you get to play more often than once a week or so, and the graphics are nicer

I couldn't say that I prefer tabletop gaming over videogames, or vice versa. But a videogame with the spontenaety/freedom of choice of a pen and paper game with a good GM? That would be a marvel.

Which is exactly how I feel. We don't pen and paper it anymore but we still get to play some board games. But video games helped fill that role for me.

I'm glad I got to do both pen and paper and video game rpgs. Because if you limit yourself to one or the other, then I think you are missing out.

Anyway everyone its been a real interesting discussion with a lot of good points made and no flaming (maybe thats cuz all the kids are sleeping! Oh snap! hehe I had to flame a bit)

It also brought up a lot of good memories so thanks for that! I'm off to bed to begin my toil anew on the morrow! Farewell!