I've now gotten into over ten debates in cyberspace and meatspace over whether Skyrim is a RPG or not.

I'd say the Four archetypes of RPG's are:
1. The rigid linear story based JRPG (FF, Chrono Trigger)
2. The more nonlinear open world adventure games that haze the gray area (Deus Ex, Mass Effect)
3. And the Boots to satchel, Tabletop origins, tell your own story, build-a-hero workshop RPG's. (DnD, TES, WoW, (Fable?))
4. Crap (Fable III?)

There are categorical issues with the above (MMO's place in the scheme of things), but it points out the fact that a RPG has been a definition of widening berth over the years.

Now there are several definitional paramaters of an RPG. Customizabe character development, equipment managment, etc. But the most important to me is the R and the P.

Role playing to me is imagination. You have to imagine these characters from ES and Fallout are doing the things prompted. And bethesda, i believe does an outstanding job of giving us the tools to play a role

Sure you might have to limit yourself from doing things that aren't appropriate for your character, because nothing is locked out due to your choices. Some might see this as a con, but that also leaves you open for your Archmage to grow wary of his collegiate duties and explore the darker sides of a drug addiction. Three months later he's a skooma addicted vampire that is pounding his way through the assassins guild on a grudge. AND he can still summon a blizzard at will.

I Implore people to consider any game with that much range. The limits of the Roleplaying in any ES game is only up to your inner child.

And i would be hard pressed to see Skyrim as anything other than an RPG.

I agree.

Yes, thank you. I could care less about these arbitrary features that people seem to think make up an "RPG" as if the name "RPG" itself is just a label slapped on a certain format of video games. I want a role playing game. I want a video game where I can roleplay as whoever I want to be in a realistic in-game world. The Elder Scrolls totally dominates in that category, and I'll be damned if Skyrim isn't the best roleplaying game I've ever seen.

You win so much.

Even FPS can technically be RPG.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1312515-why-does-it-even-matter-if-its-actually-an-rpg-or-not/page__st__180__p__19750361#entry19750361

While I agree that Skyrim is a RPG I ask myself, do we really need to start this discussion again? By the basic definition of the term RPG it's obvious skyrim is a game that fits that Category, however it can be discussed if it is a good or bad rpg based on rpg mechanics or lack of rpg mechanics.

Discussing wether or not Skyrim is an RPG is like beating a dead horse hoping it just sleeps and will wake up..

Skyrim hardcoe rpg style before attacking pause the game roll a d100 get under your skill score run up and hit the guy if you roll over purposefully miss him.

Congrats alec.b you successfully missed the point

RPG is about Role Playing, not numbers, numbers are just a way people came up with to represent skills, damage, etc.

A lack of lots of numbers on a menu doesn't make a game less of an RPG

We're talking about role playing here. About skyrim being a Role Playing game.

Kinda, walking in the shoes who knit kinda game.

Imagination.

Mechanics aside, the tools used for playing a role is worth discussing. ie, robes might not make sense statistically, but my mage doesn't wear armor, cause well, he doesn't. I have athief who wears only the finest in dress wear, though he hides a deadly bow and dagger under all that swagger. He doesn't need armor rating cause he never gets hit.

My point is that Skyrim is a certain way. Whether you want to classify the way that Skyrim is as an RPG or not, it's bad at being what it tries to be, which is what I think the people who complain that Skyrim isn't an RPG are talking about. I think those people agree that what Skyrim tries to be is an RPG -- it just doesn't do a good job.

Put another way, no one would be complaining if they bought an FPS and it wasn't an RPG. Even if someone bought an FPS thinking it was an RPG, their only gripe would be with the company's bad advertising, not with the game itself.

A lot of people tend to lump Skyrim into the Fable 3 category. But those are pretentious hipsters (is there any other kind)

Over at rpg codex they hate Skyrim with a passion, it's really pathetic.

aren't those the same people that actually think D&D4 is actually a game worthy of the name D&D as opposed to it being D&D's long drawn out funeral?

The numbers aren't just there for show on the menu though. They're there for gameplay purposes, to make the game about the character, not about you.

The outcome of combat should largely be determined by your character's abilities, not by the player's skill. Choices and actions should have an impact on the character and their interactions with the gameworld, etc.

Playing as a character like John Marston in an action-adventure game like RDR and being told a story =/= an RPG. Sure, you can imagine you're John Marston, and by literal definition you are technically roleplaying... but the game is not an RPG.

Yeah, but it's not the numbers that are making it an RPG, it's the fact that you can develop a character and influence the change of said numbers, but traditional RP'ers have gotten so used to the idea of the numbers being what makes their character that they can't see it being an RPG without the numbers being visible.

Say for the next TES game Bethesda went a step further and made it so your character does clearly develop, they get better at things, gain special skills, basically you can do anything you can in Skyrim or Oblivion as far as character development is concerned, BUT, they made the entire numbers system that governs how your skills progress, how well you fare in combat etc. invisible to the player.

Of course there would be complaints that 'I have no stats, this isn't an RPG!!', but your character is still developing as they would with the stats. It's just not visible to the player so it is free to develop more naturally rather than this idea that there must be some arbitrary numbers to appease those who can't see past the underlying numbers game of RPGs.

To be honest I think this is the next step for RPGs, a game with all the character development of a traditional RPG, but rather than having to have pages of stats and skillsheets you just see that "I trained with swords for x hours, look how much better my character can use them, he's clearly a much more proficient warrior" rather than, "I trained with swords for x hours, my sword skill has gone up, that makes me better".

It'd be a long while till this point is reached however because I think it'd require a lot of in depth animation to help make it clear to the player how their skills are developing, you'd have to for example have a character with low level swordsmanship standing with sloppy posture, his sword held poorly, taking vague swings and stabs, and progress from that into the character standing ready when in combat, sword poised, making precise movements.

It'd progress the RPG genre from having to resort to numbers as a way to represent the development of a characters abilities to how well the character actually uses his abilities being the representation of his abilities, which is of course much more natural.

Skyrim is an RPG, but it is more of a melding of genres then the TES games have been in the past.

It is kind of at a point where it can go back to being more like an RPG, or the other way to be more like a action game. It is an RPG, but the line has been blurred. Lets hope it does not get blurred further in the next game.

RB you got a vision, i can smell it.

I have no idea about that, wasn't there long enough to see that part. I bounced into there briefly because I got sick of the idiocy of Gamefaqs, but I soon discovered that unless your favourite game is a text adventure/first person genesis RPG from the 80s then you're mainstream filth to be treated with contempt.

I think 90% of them secretly bought Skyrim anyway.

I put Assassins Creed (each one) into the RPG category others do not agree with me that's fine many say its too "actiony" but if such was true Skyrim is pretty damn close to that so I put Skyrim in the RPG category as well.

But my rules are pretty simple

If its a First person shooter then its a FPS don't care about the story of anything could have a story driven game that is exiting best story ever with a main role let alone be who ever you want etc its a FPS

If its a 3rd Person shooter its a shooter now depends what kind a shooter FO3 shooter leans more over to t he RPGy side while Hitman and MGS goes into the tactical espionage zone.

Now of course each game doesn't apply like portal for example its a FPS mainly but its a puzzle game. Amnesia however has no real place depends on how you play it, of course its first person but you could be either a stealthy careful player or just barge in each door and most likely crap your pants every room but that's whats fun about it

I guess I have a very wide and broad description on what is what now I do expect certain things to be in certain games for example a RPG without any kind of character development (which could be as simple as better Armor) is for one not a good game most likely and two missing a very fundamental RPGy type thing.

And on the last note that I get flamed on countless times is minecraft = RPG of course its the definition of sandbox but it has RPG features especially now. So many roles can be used now its not even funny I usually play the rancher in the forest at least I did when I played frequently. Could be miner, etc use imagination and playing on an role playing server will give oyu much much more out of it if you do play as such.

I don't think the issue is the representation of the numbers, as long as the numbers are still there behind the scenes. Stats are gone (str, end, int, etc). They're not behind the scenes now -- they're just gone.

I broadly agree with you. I'm the guy who thinks RDR can be an rpg. I did try Assassin's Creed as an rpg as well, but there just wasn't enough activities for me to feel attached to the world in that sense. RDR jumped from the action genre that GTA4/Assassins creed are in, into the rpg genre imo because of the wide variety of side activities, fully fleshed out believable world, and inventory system. Both of which AC/GTA4 didn't have enough of.

nvm

every game would be a RP game then.

Yeah.... Assassins Creed is most definitely not an RPG.
GTA4? Nope!
RDR? NO.