How the hell can deadric princes can acess Tamriel again? In obvilion it was said that after Akatosh banned Mehrunes Dagon from tamriel the doors of obvilion were cloosed forever and could never be opened (or iam wrong?).I understand that are other ways o daedra contacting tamriel like I want to know,did i read/heard wrong?Can still daedra visit mortal world?Or just mehrunes was banished?

Oblivion doors as seen in the Oblivion Crisis wont open again, but the Daedric gods can still channel their way into Nirn for a short time. Short being a relative term.

It's Dagon's Oblivion that was disconnected from Nirn in OB.

And besides, it's the invasion that was stopped. Daedra can ALWAYS have a contact with Nirn, both through cults revering them and through their own means.

the method of which the Mythic Dawn opened gates was disabled.


also because there was no one mantling the Amulet of Kings it made it possible to bring the gates open, remeber the gates didnt open until AFTER uriel died.

to initiate the barriers, one must wear the Amulet AND preform the ritual reignition of the Dragon fires, that was the pact.


Also the pact only stops MASS INVASION on Nirn, not small instances like invitations and summonings.

yes I am sorry Oblivion poorly explained that to new peeps

I like to think the barrier is weakening, and that soon enough, the Princes will walk Nirn once more. I shall aid Mephala in spinning webs, and Boethiah in toppling kings.

they're invited, it would be rude not to visit.

From what I understand, it prevents liminal bridges between Oblivion and Mundus from lasting more than a few minutes, just like how it was before the crisis. I'm guessing Sheogorath's portal was something different. It may have simply been due to the fact that Daedra could not enter Mundus through it.

Long story short, it was said wrongly.

There has been a tradition in the series to treat information as not always reliable. Books are written by authors who have certain (limited) world views and perhaps intentional or unintentional biases. People in Tamriel don't always know everything or are unable to explain everything, or simply have incomplete information. The first Pocket Guide to the Empire is a nice example of this, or closer to home http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-concises-account-great-war-between-empire-and-aldmeri-dominion shows some interesting examples of biases and incomplete information.

The past few games, Oblivion, Shivering Isles and Skyrim have started to do plot exposition via main characters and loading screen messages. These are very effective at conveying the story of the game. However they also have a certain authority to them because it implies that this is the storyteller talking directly to the audience. Generally you have no reason to doubt the storyteller.

In this case however you have and you should.


Sounds about right.

Perhaps useful to add, the barrier stops exactly this:

• The Padomay aligned et'Ada (Daedra) travelling from Oblivion to Mundus without prior invitation.

Sotha Sils pact as described in 2920 provides the additional limitations that:

• Daedric princes will only honour the invitations of those skilled and trained, such as witches, mages and conjurers.

The barrier can be weakened or by passed by:

• Removing those structures that reinforce the barrier such as Towers (see Nu-Mantia Intercept).
  
• Knowing the First Secret (see Words of the Clan Mother).
  
• Manifesting the elements in the sphere of a Daedric Prince to such a grand degree that they simply manifest themselves in Mundus.

Sheogoraths portal was not Daedric in nature, it was simply inert material and as such it can enter Mundus. Mortals themselves are not limited by any barriers that prevent them from leaving and so they can.

I thought Martin just restored Alessia's pact with Akatosh, except that instead of using the Amulet of Kings (which can be stolen), he used an indestructible (well, more or less) statue?

Sotha Sil: pact was enabled so that novice summoners and intrest groups couldn't summon vast armies on their own plugging the hole the pact of Akatosh made which simply stopped Daedra from entering on thier own.


Barriers

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. examples are mass slaughter for mehrunes Dagon, or Insanity/eccentric acts for Sheogorath

Pretty much what everyone said: Martin's thing only stopped any all-out invasions from Oblivion. You can still summon Daedric princes and chat with them.

I don't even know if i really agree with that. Presumably, the Oblivion Gates, while self sufficient, were being established by Mythic Dawn agents. My oblivion story may be a little rusty, but didn't you ahve to investigate suspicious activity outside the walls of Bruma before the Great Gate opened?

Anyway, you have at least 2 instances in Skyrim of the Daedric Princes either manifesting partially in Mundus (Barbas) or dispatching minions without an invitation (The Dremora at the Dagon shrine). Seems to me like the Daedra actually have MORE access to Nirn than they did before. Theres also Meridia's rather show-y Icarian Flight trick, and the whole Sheogorath deal.

I'm getting the feeling the 'Closed shut the gates of Oblivion' line was just a feel-good attempt at closure.

I've wondered if the pact is now voided, since Seht is dead and all. Toasted by Ayem and hung from his own wires. Unless he had achieved CHIM, which is something I've never heard about.

It is still valid by all appearances. For example no irate King has summoned Mehrunes Dagon to trample the village of a bard who's song displeased him.

Sotha Sil does mention in 2920 that the pact is voided but he does not know who actually summoned Mehrunes. So he was in error there.

Though in all these cases, they require the Dragonborn to transgress somewhat before they can act in kind. You're free to ignore Meridia's statue, you can tell Silus to screw off, decline Sam's drinking challenge, and stay far, far away from the Pelagius wing. As far as the Dragon of Cyrodiil is concerned, you're a big boy/girl and can deal with the consequences of your willful interactions with eldritch horrors.

Imagine a Sphere with 4 layers.

Outer layer is the Outer Realms

Inside that, there is the Aetherius.

Inside that, there is Oblivion.

Inside that, there is Mundus.

Now, I don't know how _actually_ accurate this anology is, but it helps to understand the fact that they Ayleids built White-Gold in the goal to access some creatia left from Aetherius. However, they realized that accessing Oblivion was much easier, so they made a pact with them and basically used the AOK and the dragonfires to keep them at bay. In Oblivion(TES4), the "seal" breaks and Dagon invades Mundus. Seeing this, Martin becomes Akatosh's avatar by destroying the AOK and beats Dagon's ass back to Oblivion. The result is that akatosh liberated White-Gold from it's dependence to Oblivion for creatia, I believe that Akatosh's statue is now the stone powering White-Gold Tower, and it's fueled from Aetherius, NOT Oblivion.

Considering that in the Dawn era, Magnus caused the "holes" (which are the sun and starts) in the membrane of Mundus, all the way through Oblivion and to Aetherius. This is how Oblivion influences Mundus, through the sun and stars. It's also worthy to note that it's how magic influences Mundus, it sips through the stars into the realm.

Well, Barbas is viewable to mortals before the Dragonborn even gets involved. That one mad man from the Shivering Isles who accompanied Sheogorath had presumably been wandering around town for some time, and he does interact with others. My point is that the Daedra seem to have alot more wiggle room and ability to directly interact with Nirn than they did even during the Oblivion Crisis.

It's like a screen, really. A paper-thin screen, but one that you cannot see behind. Normally, it's like there's a light on the Oblivion side: you can see the shadows of the Daedric Princes, you can hear them, they can occasionally reach out and interact with you, but functionally, they're hidden behind that screen. When they appear on Mundus as themselves, you're not really seeing THEM, you're seeing their shadow.

The Mythic Dawn started taking a knife to that screen and cutting away chunks, thus allowing the Daedra to step through completely at will. Mehrunes Dagon came toppling through the screen, knocking it down- functionally, the screen was gone, and Oblivion and Mundus were pretty much the same thing. Then Martin goes to get the screen repair man, who throws Mehrunes Dagon back beyond the screen, puts up a new, far more strong one, and nails it in place far more securely.

Well, in Morrowind we saw all kinds of Daedra walking around (Winged Twilights, Hungers, Saints) which we never saw outside of oblivion in later games. In Oblivion, Sheogorath can make it rain dogs in Cyrodiil. We see either far less or none of this in Skyrim, and while a talking dog is enough to make anyone interested, it was a choice we made following Barbas/agreeing to listen to the madman, and they never did anything harmful to anyone. I think this is just the way thing happen in Nirn - theres a book about a boy accepting a soul gem from a dremora he has summoned, and the book tells us this is a superstition about how one should never do this, and the boy gets killed. He made a choice, even if he did it out of ignorance.

Although I don't really like my logical idea, and I like to think when Crystal-like-law fell the paper thin screen the poster above talks about gets more chunks ripped out. Also, I'd like to point out it wasn't just the Mythic dawn making these tears, but the events of the previous games (Staff of Chaos destroyed, Warp in the West, Lorkhan's heart disapearing) also made these rips. Its possible that Martin only repaired the cuts the Mythic Dawn made, and even though everyone doesn't realize it, we are back at the state of the barriers in Oblivion due to the tower falling.

Also, Snow-Throat being a Tower, the events in Skyrim are directly tied to the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion and Thalmor's plans to "unmake the world"

Thats kinda ignoring other examples mind you. Mehrunes Dagon, for instance, dispatches Dremora to kill or at least test you you, without any need to be summoned. Molag Bal imprisons you, then an acolite of Boethia, then repeatedly brings said acolite back to life. Nocturnal manifests physically, though the Ebonmere could serve as a stable portal in an of its self. You also have Hermaus Mora not so righteously smiting that one bonkers dude.

The dog thing did show Sheogorath had some more infliance in Nirn at the time of the Oblivion Crisis than one may expect, but considering the Gremarch and the portal to the Isles, i think the extra oomph for making it rain flaming dogs is explainable. And Morrowind is well known for Daedra worship, so the presence of Daedra, which was mostly around daedric shrines, also makes sense.

But i can't remember any time where a Daedric prince could directly send what ammounts to hitmen after you. Particularly when you consider this is Dagon we're talking about, the one whose realm we are let to beleive we are safe from, it indicates to me that the 'Closed shut the gates of Oblivion' thing meant absolutely nothing.

I'm of the opinion that the resolution of the Oblivion main quest prevented the Daedric princes from entering Nirn fully, but did not prevent them from projecting avatars into the world. The gigantic Mehrunes Dagon that Martin/Akatosh banished at the end of Oblivion was the Daedra's true self, while Skryim's favorite drinking buddy is no more Sanguine than the entity the Nerevarine fought at the end of the Bloodmoon was Hircine. These beings are fragments of the Daedric princes, possessing little of their true power.

Of course, I have no idea what rules govern how and when a Daedric prince can send such an avatar into Nirn.

This is one of the better ways I've seen this explained. Good anology.

To sum up the OP's original questions as to Daedric presence in Skyrim:

First of all, with a few exceptions, Daedric presence is at an all time low in Skyrim. Lower than Morrowind, even.

Now, as to the cases like Sheogorath and Dagon's presence in Skyrim:

Dagon's Dremora are confined to his shrine. The shrine serves as an invitation, of sorts. You can see this in Morrowind as well, where there are daedra wandering around Daedric ruins and Dremora guarding the shrines to the princes themselves.

The rest of the Daedra don't really manifest themselves directly on Mundus. And any time they do have power, it's always in the presence of their shrine.

I always assumed these shrines to the daedra are built with a degree of magick involved, and they are linked inexorably to the daedra they are dedicated to.

Meridia is another example where this fits. She only has influence once you bring her an artifact which is already part of her essence (remember that daedric artifacts have bits of the daedra in question linked to them), and even then, she doesn't physically manifest, she just talks to you and does a light show.

Her actions after that are by invitation, yours.

Sheogorath is the one weird case.

In Oblvion, the door to the Shivering Isles is for mortals only, and the reason it works is covered in dialogue with Haskill. Basically, since only mortals can pass through it, it serves as an open invitation to mortals to visit the Shivering Isles, which is not against the rules. Remember that Sotha Sil also visited Oblivion at least once, and Vivec did as well. Granted, they weren't exactly mortals, but still.

Sheogorath's bit in Skyrim is similar, an open invitation, AND an artifact that's linked to the daedra himself (pelagius's hip bone).

I would attribute the trial-by-Dremora, Bal's torture session, and Septimus' disintegration as invitation via embodiment - in other words, rush onto the princes, and the princes rush onto you.

The flaming dogs I think is a special case, not dissimilar to the Nerevarine prophecy, in that the letter of the prophecy is not descriptive but proscriptive - the difference between what will happen and what must happen before something comes to pass. Remember, symbolic actions have weight here, they can make men into gods and cause the firmament to rain flaming dogs.

Of course, we might also attribute the apparent "wiggle room" the Daedra have this time around to Nordic laxness in persecuting their worshipers.

This means that the Deadric Lords can find away to manifest themselfs at Tamriel by using they Shrines?I finded intersting your opinion.Also for people thining that Meridia is not enerithil "evil".We know how works the Deadric lords mind's.She can probaly use her essence to finally go into Tamriel and do what is intersting to her.