Or you could just deal with the fact that people have opinions that are different than yours rather than just trying to throw "solutions" in their face as if their opinion means nothing.

Just saying :shrug:

But those are our only options. If it's confirmed NOT to be in the game, that's it.

I don't see how me trying to give solutions means I think their opinions mean nothing. Hell, I personally wish it WAS in the vanilla game in some way. But if it's not, there's nothing we can do except what I suggested. Which is mod it in. Can't do it yourself? Wait for it. Can't wait? You have to learn to make mods yourself or be more patient. Don't have the PC version? Buy a PC or learn to deal without.

Heres the thing, even if Consoles would magically be able to handle un-walled/non-seperate Cities....Levitate still might still not be in the game.

You'd understand why if you ever heard Todd discuss the importance of Mountains and how they effect travel and most likely discovery of new locations.

It simply conflicts with multiple layers of game design, from the walled cities to mountains. It's understandable if levitate is out or severely neutered with a small time limit or insane magicka drain.

I apologize then, I got the wrong impression.

no you may not..........

Look at this video thats Oblivion with fully functional Levitations thats fully supported by AI,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgrUPA-TlhM

Pathfinding was reworked in Skyrim, there is flying creatures will be in game,
As pure warrior you can use armors and shields for resisting spells (perks thats increase resistance to spells and ability block with shield was confirmed), not all mages will levitate but most powerful will, how you prepare before for such battles?
Be prepared for such fights, take enchanted weapons and armors, use poisons, use scrolls, thrown weapons into mage, if he will lose concentration he will fall, paralyzed mage will floating helpless target, burden curse will drop and anchor him to earth, at last shout FUS RO DAH and he will fall to earth.
There is many possibilities to deal with levitating mage, thats will balance Levitation, flawed feature must be fixed and improved not axed thats wrong way to fix something.
Besides dragons use their magical language to fly, there can be Levitation shout for all, and as I describe before it can be devided by power with different cool downs, so flying like lich or Winged Twilight will be more frequent then true Levitation thats will take for example day for recharging, while time under levitating can be small.

Exactly making game be interesting for exploring in Z axis, is really need, if mages can use Levitation then warriors and rogues can climb and jump thats logical does not?
TES open world game who need artificial borders like in Oblivion?
If need to forbid levitation there is other ways to do thats, powerful winds at certain altitude will distract mage concentration and levitation effect will be canceled, powerful mage put enchained circle in area thats prevent from levitation, with burden or dispel or silence, there is flying enemies around thats can disturb concentration of mage during flight (dragons. cliffracers) low ceilings in area prevent from rising altitude


Thats exactly the same issue, not need to remove invisibility and chameleon need make them improved and fixed for example similar to this

Invisibility
Novice
Become invisible while motionless, movement will break invisibility, cannot recast spell if detected.
Apprentice
Able to move invisibly while crouched, interacting with the environment or bumping anyone breaks invisibility, cannot recast spell if detected.
Journeyman
Able to perform stealth kills and critical strikes while invisible, bumping anyone or interacting with the environment breaks invisibility. Inflicts sneak attack damage on strike that breaks invisibility, cannot recast spell if detected.
Expert
Able to interact with the environment while invisible, interacting don't breaks invisibility until not seen by actor, cannot recast spell if detected.
Master
Able to hide sight of enemy but enemy will aware of presence of character around and will search.

For first Invisibility is not stealth since Light has no effect o it so invisibility can be used even in areas full of light,
for second actors thats aware of player presence can search for player and if bump into him effectively breaking his invisible state, or by force player (by saying something like "catch you... you cant hide forever') to make stupid things thats will break his invisibility like attack or open doors (interact with objects), for second creatures can fill presence of invisible actor because of their beast mind thats hard to affect with certain illusion spells and their animal senses, enemy mages actually can cast detect life spell and if their level + skill level+ magnitude of spell will be greater then player character level + skill level + magnitude of spell then player will be detected in invisible state, thats can be difference between invisibility and chameleon, under chameleon character will be always detected by detect life spell.
Chameleon will work as not additional spell but as middle-high level perk thats add chameleon spell effect to base invisibility spell and can has requirements in some sneak skill perks or levels.
Chameleon must be caped, 100% chameleon must not be achievable in game only with CS, 50-75% chameleon will be best cap, for second actors must use detect life spell thats will always found character under chameleon, chameleon can work as support spell for sneak skill not as replace of it, so it can lower light penalty for sneaking characters, as well as be overridden by direct light spell since actors can still hear movement of character thats will increase detection,

There can be different additional spell effects thats can be added as addons to invisibility via perks like
Demoralize Aura: hide real character vision and make him looks fearsome for enemies effectively demoralizing them and make them flee, don't work on certain actors.
Charming Aura: real character vision and make him looks charming to actors don't work in combat, but affect actors in certain radius around caster.

Levitation fit to new magic system also and can be done in different way.
Levitation SlowFall and Jump can work as one spell like Alter Gravity spell
At Novice level its work like feather spell on self, as burden at enemy, as gravitation trap thats slowing enemy on ground and charge will allow Jump at two times higher then normal jump, when channeled spell allow Slowfall, as channeled spell can be interrupted by lucky strike of enemy or (battle mages can have special training for reducing such chances thats can be implemented with perk) or with spell like Burden or paralyze or can be cleansed with Dispel or when Magicka is not sufficient for work of spell, channeled spells use different amounts of Magicka when it not sufficient its downgrades to lower perk for example mage has 150 Magicka float use 50 for cast and 5 drain for each second when Magicka lowered under 50 float will be changed with slowfall, additional checks can be added like check of player Fatigue and level of Encumbrance when Over-encumbered for example can become Burdened but instead of levitation will only allow float.

At Apprentice level when Mage understood Alternation better, Magnitude of Feather will rise, Magnitude of Burden rise, gravitation trap thats maximum burden enemy he still can attack but cant move and sink in water, charge will allow Jump at three times higher then normal jump, Mage can walk on water and don't crumble ice during channeling, but receive damage from walking over magma or another dangerous substance.

At Journeyman level Magnitude of Feather will rise, Magnitude of Burden rise more, gravitation trap thats paralyze enemy, charge will allow jump four times higher then normal jump, channel will allow float like a Lich and strafe backward without penalty, floating not allow change altitude higher then one jump height or half of it, anything higher will slowly decrease with Slowfal to one jump height or half of it, but can float over dangerous environment like lava and pits don't trigger pressure plates or similar traps.

At Expert level Magnitude of Feather will rise, Magnitude of Burden rise more, gravitation trap thats thats additionally squash enemy at end of duration, charge will allow jump five times higher then normal jump, channel will allow Levitate with both hand if another hand was equipped with something else not with gravitation spell player lose ability to rise altitude and start slow fall if spell was removed from both hands player will fall fast as normally, levitation use much more Magicka then float or water walk for cast and can drain more for sustaining.

At Master level Magnitude of Feather will rise, Magnitude of Burden rise more, gravitation trap thats rise and fall enemy into air at end of duration, charge will allow jump six times higher then normal jump, channel will allow Levitate with one hand.

With skill levels in Alternations school power of Burden and Feather will rise automatically as base spell, while channeling, charge and traps can require additional perks and added by perks dynamically by scripts into base spell when spell casted, all previous spell effects staked in higher level spell so for example Apprentice can both slowfall and and waterwalk, such way will allow remove from casted spell effects in restricted areas or trigger zones so there can be places where such magic negated like Mournhold in Morrowind just with simple script or create enemies thats invulnerable for such effect but can be harmed by other effects from that spell.

I'm gonna be the one who calls shenanigans here about being OPed with Levitation and the whole idea behind closed cities due to console limitations, and I can say this with proof of 2 RPG's we've seen that have utilized console hardware to a large extent and have features similar to levitation.

First, I'll discuss Divinity II Ego Draconis, as this game uses the same graphics engine as Oblivion - Gamebryo (a newer version of the game is out with a new graphics engine known as Dragon Knight Saga, but I own a retail copy of ED, so I know full well what Gamebryo can do as a graphics engine). The game uses both interior and exterior cells, with much of the game being exterior. It uses similar streaming technology to defeat the huge task of making the world feel open, and yes it does have it's limitations much like OB.... But you can transform into a dragon, on-the-fly, whenever you want when you get the skill. This is regardless of your exterior location. The game also boasts open cities, and they are on a decently sized scale. Seeing as it does give a small drop in frames on my PC, I can see this dropping a fair amount on a console, but it is done with a few caveats: You cannot attack people on the ground as they disappear.. and turning into a dragon, you can only use dragon skills (naturally). However, this dynamic allows the player a change of pace in gameplay, as new enemies are to be fought, and new locations are accessible. I'm pretty sure with the Creation Engine, the developers at Bethesda could do something along these lines in a DLC. However, I should note the game does not utilize a dynamic scripting system for NPC schedules and such, but I'm sure the developers may have nixed that idea in favor of the implementation of dragon-flight. I do not yet have a copy of DKS, and as soon as it hits a sale price I will pick it up to see what the technical differences are between the new graphics engine used, the tweaks, and the balancing to enchantments, magic, and charms are.

The other game I'll reference is Risen. The developers use a world-streaming technology, where the whole world is streamed in as one exterior cell. No matter where you go, the only time you see a loading screen is when you load a game. The cities aren't as grandiose as in a TES title, and while some NPC's appear to have schedules, they're just scripted routines. However, the game does allow the use of levitation, but you can't attack while using the spell. This is something Bethesda could have easily done, if they so chose, as to implement levitation into the game. The way PB uses levitation: Moving an object would require a large amount of concentration, and therefore would disallow the player to do other things like use a bow, or throw rocks, as examples. Once the spell is cast, you have a small amount of time to use the spell, as a 'stamina' bar slowly depletes as you float, or when you choose to increase the effects of the spell, the bar falls faster...

I think a good balance of using levitation would be similar to how it is used in Risen, only based on the attributes system in TES. This would allow a magic-based character to utilize levitation to a greater extent - reach high places, get out of a bind quickly, and scale areas where their fighting ability will not allow to get that awesome loot... Whereas it could be used by non magic-based characters as a means to get to some areas not easily-accessible for the loot. Yes, the drawback would be that you would not be able to attack while using the spell, but I'm pretty sure many people who used levitation in MW were much like myself: Used it to get out of an area quickly, and access hard-to-reach places. While I knew full well I could attack enemies while up in the sky, I rarely did, mainly because my character builds in TES games have been hybrid battlemage/stealth characters, where I don't have A LOT of magicka, but I can use a few high-damage, high-level spells while emphasizing my quick agility in combat, still using short swords, or daggers/knives....

I am dissapointed. I know the reason they did it but I'm not going to say.

Other games load and unload in the background new areas, but again, that's on the PC. That's been around since at least 2002.

I would be more disappointed if you are, again, forced to use the main gate and cannot take alternative routes into the city.

Besides, maybe there still is levitation, but with a maximum height so you never can get over the chittywall or even plain invisible barriers around separate loading cells.
Not wanting to get your hopes up, just pointing out that levitation and loading cells are not mutually exclusive.

I mostly agree with what you have said. However, that vid doesn't tell me much - everybody can levitate, there - and I still think that no-mage characters would be in huge disadvantage. About exploration itself, it would be cool in no-mages had an alternative. Anyway, in this particular game, I think that Levitation would remove great part of exploration, instead of giving. You're supposed to look for ways to travel across mountains, not fly over them. Though that idea about it being a Dragonshout, shorter than typical Levitation, could work.

I agree with you about Levitation and Chameleon. I haven't said they should be removed, but fixed. 100% Chameleon is, for me, one of the things that should be fixed. I'm quite happy qith Invisibility, but if enemies could be aware of your presence because of the sound, it would be great, and what you have said about different levels is a great idea.

I am not concerned if it is not in but I think that it could still be implemented by simply setting the game to triger the load screen when the player gets over top the City walls whether coming into or Going out of the city.
But my guess is that it is gone from the game until a mod puts it back in.

Excellent point. I can't believe I never considered that before. Already dreaming of air to air battles with Dragons.

Well thats vid shows proof thats AI capable to react well on levitation (what was not in Morrowind) use arrows and even sword fight in sky just need some improvements also for testing reason ability to levitate was added to many actors, thats mod was done by one modder only, while devs even try to drag into Lore their inability to make AI able to fly, such levitations was achieved only after five years when modders create enough resources like nif scripts for creating new anims and OBSE to make and edit hardcoded functions, while devs have such tools from beginning, another thing Todd say thats Oblivion will have only bows because thats hard to make variability in game and better concentrate on just one marksman weapon, while modders make first completely functional throwing weapon mod after few months after release of Oblivion only with vanilla scripting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzOsBAPoWQE
And now mods like Unnecessary Violence or Deadly Reflex implement throwing weapons in much better way completely as equal alternative to bows, and what will be in Skyrim what do you think does they will increase variability?
Why team of experienced developers axe or simplify features instead of adding more variability and fixing flaws in features?

I know this is really later, but it's mostly for Pathfinding issues. It doesn't really matter how much Magicka it costs, if you just plop yourself on an unreachable outcropping and hammer away at an army as it runs around like a headless chicken.

Moreover, it makes world design a huge pain. You wind up having to account for an entirely new dimension to every encounter, every place, everything really. Levitation is just more trouble than it's worth is all I can really say. Everything can be ironed out, but there's much better things that can be done in the same time.

Na, it adds depth and variety. If you dont like it, dont use it. I already explained how to balance it.

Levitation isn't a simple spell...

It should be reserved for the high level mages. Perhaps to a higher level than to Morrowind.

I think people think that levitation was readily available to any character at any level in Morrowind. It wasn't. It wasn't usable, to a decent scale, until I had a high enough Alteration (Though enchanting may have been a tad easy to abuse). Though I do believe it should have been taken further. And enchantments need a look at to make them hard to abuse.

Also, and prepare for a taste of your own medicine, Oblivion fans;

IF U DONT LIEK IT DONT UZE IT!!1!!!
:teehee:

Yes, I'm gutted with this news.

Personally, I would rather just have believable physics this time around, more so than levitation. I never much cared for the skill in Morrowind anyways personally.

So you were okay with only Mages being able to bypass a good portion of the game and go godmode vs melee enemies?

Sounds like 100% Chameleon fans all over again.

i'm more disappointed about the cities than levitation..

That has nothing to do with anything.
There isnt a 'bypass' because there is no set way to play the game.
Sneaking past, hacking your way through and floating over is all equally valid gameplay.

Sounds like 'Dont like it, dont use it'. If your so concerned with balance, you can balance it yourself. I have. honestly I think all of these "balance" people just have no self control.

I hate to quote a comic book character but, "With great power, comes great responsibility".

This doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of levitation, actually. Considering that DF/MW's implementation of levitation was hilariously overpowered (more due to AI constraints than anything), arguably there's still some hope that Bethesda has been playing around with the idea and ways to re-work levitation to be more balanced. What if levitation could only take you to a certain fixed altitude relative to the ground beneath you? Like, say, +20 feet. If so, with some terrain adjustments and sufficiently high walls, they could still have it in the game without ruining their city illusion.

I'm overly optimistic on this one. Frankly levitation seems like it'd be pretty high up there as one of the super-cool things the developers would want as a dragon-shout, at the very least.


"Balance" is a pretty fickle thing to define in a single-player RPG with mods and its own intrinsic developer console. I think the only time spells in the Elder Scrolls are ever imbalanced is when NPCs are incapable of protecting themselves/using them against the actual player.

Considering we're running around in a world where melee-oriented characters are going to have to be slashing at dragons up in the sky, Bethesda may have some tricks up their sleeves that could serve the dual purpose of making fights against levitating characters more balanced as well. :nod:

There's a simple balancing factor:

If you're levitating and there's a dragon nearby, you're dead.

Lol u mad bro?

Also, Levitation would be much harder to develop this late into the phase of it, and it looks stupid IMHO. You're floating in the air .. woohoo?
And since when has Armor&Shield just been a Warrior Defense? I have a mage in oblivion who has Blade & Heavy Armor as two major skills, and if it is implemented into the game it should be as stated above reserved for high level mages, I really don't want it to be one of my first spells, so I can just be like "LOLZ I CAN FLY, U CAN'T" *Fire ball spam*

Couldn't they just use invisible walls?